EP09 Alchemy Through Humiliation: Turning Shame into High Performing Copy with Ilana Khin

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EP09 Alchemy Through Humiliation: Turning Shame into High Performing Copy with Ilana Khin

Ilana Khin spent her whole life terrified of being humiliated — until she built an entire coaching practice around walking straight into it instead of away from it.

In this episode, Ilana Khin, copywriter and Existential Kink–certified coach, joins Laurel to talk about existential kink coaching, honest business performance, and why the fear of humiliation might be the most useful thing in your chart.

What you'll walk away with: — Why chasing "authenticity" as a brand identity can actually be the least honest thing you do — and what to build instead — The reframe Ilana calls "alchemy through humiliation," and why she says it's the fastest path to real creative and business power — How to spot the difference between a business built on performance and one built on honest expression, before your audience does

Chart tease: Ilana's Chiron sits in the house of public image, locked in a tight square to the placement that gave her, as an infant, her first lesson that strangers — and attention — aren't safe. "Alchemy through humiliation" isn't a phrase Ilana found. It's the shape of her chart.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to Soul-Led Practices

02:38 Exploring Existential Kink Coaching

05:12 Health, Astrology, and Personal Experiences

07:46 Astrological Insights and Medical Astrology

10:11 The Connection Between Health and Business

12:51 Understanding the Role of Pluto in Personal Development

15:20 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Healing

17:56 Childhood Experiences and Their Impact

20:44 The Influence of Chiron and Saturn on Health

23:12 Navigating Personal Challenges and Growth

26:25 Reclaiming Self-Expression

31:13 Navigating Control and Perception

35:18 Alchemy Through Humiliation

38:59 The Impact of Early Experiences

47:54 The Role of Fantasy and Escapism

52:27 Navigating College and Motivation

56:13 The Quest for True Motivation

57:00 Soul Initiation and Personal Growth

01:01:13 Dancing Through Life's Changes

01:05:57 Astrological Reflections and Personal Journeys

ABOUT ILANA KHIN

Ilana Khin is the copywriter and Existential Kink–certified coach behind Creatrix Copy, where she helps solopreneurs, mystics, and artists write and build from their most honest selves instead of a polished performance. She's currently mid soul-initiation — she sold what she owned, went nomadic in 2025, and has been dancing her way through Latin America.

Threads: www.threads.com/ilana.khin

Website: https://linktr.ee/ilanakhin

About This Channel

Astrology doesn’t happen to you. It happens through you. Welcome to Made for This, the podcast where we demonstrate the “holy cow - I feel so seen” power of Soul ARC Astrology™—a pioneering system of Astrological Awareness, Psychological Resonance, and Quantum Creation.

Hosted by astrologer Laurel Kassor, we explore the intersection of the stars and the soul to turn your "abstract" experiences into "impactful" success. Whether you are a spiritual entrepreneur, creative, educator, or soulful seeker every episode is a living case study for your own evolution.

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Laurel Kassor (00:12)

Welcome to Orbit Seekers. This is episode nine of Made for This with Laurel Casser, the podcast where soul-led practitioners, educators, and creatives come together to connect the constellations on how astrology turns from abstract insight to real-world impact when you follow your soul's arc. I'm Laurel Kassor your astro oracle host and the founder of Soul Arc Astrology. And today I have the siren of copywriting, Ilana Khin Ilana is one part astrologer, one-part copywriter, and one part

Heart Existential Kink Coach, which makes her 100% the weird Jungian therapist you didn't know your business needed. As the founder of Creatrix Copy, she works with solopreneurs, mystics, artists, and practitioners to help them slip into their most erotic lives and build thriving businesses. And on top of that, she's currently on a soul initiation journey that I can't wait to hear more about, and I'm sure we'll be all over her chart. Ilana, thank you so much for joining me.

Ilana (01:11)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Laurel Kassor (01:14)

I'm so excited to have you. I have been wanting to interview you and just get to know you better ever since before I even had a reason to do so. So this is

Ilana (01:23)

Hehehe

Laurel Kassor (01:24)

really exciting for me personally because I just think you're so different than me in a way that makes me go my God, I want to learn. what is the combination of events and energy, of course, that that makes the kaleidoscope of you?

Ilana (01:41)

I love that.

Laurel Kassor (01:43)

Would you tell us more about your work? What is an existential kink coach? Tell us more about how you combine that with your astrology and everything. I'm so curious.

Ilana (01:55)

Yeah, so really I would say I mean existential kink is a phrase and a modality that was coined by Carolyn Elliott who wrote the best selling book, Existential Kink. And I was certified with her in her coach training certification program four years ago, not that many years ago.

Laurel Kassor (02:15)

It was a different

world though, to be honest. Four years ago was a different world.

Ilana (02:17)

Different world. It totally was.

It totally was. but anyways, and so really what I was doing, and this was, you know, I had already been practicing astrology, giving readings. I would say my astrological orientation is a combination of Hellenistic, you know, kind of more traditional frameworks, as well as a little bit of evolutionary and

Laurel Kassor (02:41)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (02:42)

psychological.

Laurel Kassor (02:43)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (02:43)

astrology

as well, because that's kind of I would say the psychological astrology was the stuff that I first picked up on when I first started

Laurel Kassor (02:49)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (02:49)

getting into astrology. and yeah, so I had already been counseling clients, consulting their charts, giving readings of different kinds, holding workshops. I was doing new moon, full moon workshops. They were also

Laurel Kassor (02:59)

Mm.

Ilana (03:00)

very somatic based because I had had a yoga teacher training years before that. And so I was always kind of facilitating astrology through the body.

Laurel Kassor (03:07)

Mm.

Ilana (03:07)

That was

what I was interested in. Cause my first, my very first teacher and mentor who literally opened astrology for me was a yoga teacher. she has actually a pretty big following for her astrological work as well. And she really beautifully bridges somatics, the the body, and the cosmos. and so Existential Kink came online for me back in 2021, 2022. because I was

Almost having a certain kind of I was aware of the book, I hadn't read it, but I found myself in the midst of a very unnecessarily dramatic situationship kind of ending, right? the way that we that we do.

Laurel Kassor (03:42)

Ugh I know what you my god. I gave up eight months to a

situationship before. it's worse than a breakup because you were never it's was limbo the whole time anyway, yeah. what the fuck am I mourning?

Ilana (03:52)

Yeah, you never you were never together. Right. Right. Right.

Well, so the it was less so the pain of the breakup and more so me having this realization as I'm lying in bed with what had to have been either a kidney infection or a kidney stone, which I was blown

Laurel Kassor (04:12)

god.

Ilana (04:13)

away by because I was What the hell? this has never happened to me. I'm also someone who doesn't really ever get sick, right? So if I'm

in bed in arguably the most pain that I've ever experienced in my life. It's something's going on. And so

Laurel Kassor (04:26)

For real.

Ilana (04:27)

basically I yeah, s it escal you know, a very kind of low grade UTI escalated into what I imagined.

I still don't know exactly what happened because basically yeah, I went to get, you know, antibiotics because I was I treat everything usually very naturally. I don't really turn to a lot of pharmaceutical things that unless it's absolutely necessary. And so I was just treating, you know, the low grade UTI symptoms with herbs and you know, the protocol that I have for that. And it was getting better.

And then all of a sudden, literally within a few hours, I felt this really sharp pain in my kind of flank area where presumably my kidneys are. And so I was Okay. And it was only getting worse and worse and worse literally by the minute. And so I took myself to, you know, the clinic, some kind of urgent care nearby. And they were yeah, this is a real, real infection. I was Okay, great. Just give me something and let's let's get a move on it, because I literally can't walk. And so, yeah.

it's still they lost my test results by the way. they

just couldn't find them and so it wasn't clear what exactly the strain of the infection, which I guess is what they check because that's what they used to determine the antibiotic they prescribed to you because they prescribed me an antibiotic and I had to it came back after the tr you know, the run through and I had to go on another run through. And this is I I haven't taken antibiotics in a decade before up until this point. So anyways, as I'm lying in bed, thankfully it was a brief spell, but it was

most excruciating pain of my life. And I am convinced that I don't think it was a kidney infection because I think you have a fever and you vomit and you you have a lot of signs that something is infected. I wasn't having any of those signs. I was just having really intense pain that I thought I was going to die. And I was you know, maybe there's some kidney stone because when you're peeing a lot, because you're taking herbs

that make you pee a lot, that might activate the releasing of that. And so I was my gosh. And then when I saw my

special kind of holistic lady and she checked, you know, with her special what is it called? It's a electromagnetic frequency kind of machine and there was some kind of re you

Laurel Kassor (06:22)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know what the machine I know the machine you're talking about. I forget what they're called.

Ilana (06:26)

It's called the Quest?

Laurel Kassor (06:27)

I don't know. I just know the I don't remember what it's called. I just know the machine itself. I've seen it before and I've worked with people who work with it before. Mm-hmm.

Ilana (06:37)

amazing. Yeah.

Well so basically it said that there were some kidney stone kind of remnants, but it in a on a subtle level. It wasn't even

Laurel Kassor (06:45)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (06:45)

yeah, there's a stone here. So she prescribed me some herbs and, you know anyways, I don't know. I'm sorry I went into that whole story, but essentially

Laurel Kassor (06:52)

D I I

I'm not sorry you went into that whole story because I know usually we have a Mercury's in retrograde just so everyone knows. So you know what? We're switching up how we typically kick off these

sessions here. So we're gonna actually just dig and start pinpointing some of what you just described because hello,

Ilana (07:09)

yeah.

Laurel Kassor (07:10)

this is really interesting. So a few different things I noticed as you were speaking, I was attaching to the chart the whole time. One of the big things that pops out to me and that I listen for when people talk about doctors or health or medical especially medical professional stuff is two different pillars as I call them. in solar astrology

I ha run a 12 pillar system, as I call it. And so I use 12 planets because what a pillar is essentially is a a I think of them as a quantum field of source consciousness. And there are 12 different distinctive ones. And within that field exist all spectrums of possibility and potential associated with the umbrella of the frequency of a particular

one of these pillar topics or themes. I person there's a lot of different things you can associate them with, but I kind of have been kind of calling them by the processes which are facilitated by these pillars. So the two pillars I think of when I when people talk about medical care or health or body and also professionals would be pillar six which is the service pillar or

I'm playing with renaming it to the refinement pillar. And that has to do with Virgo, the sixth house in my system, the planet Chiron, and the opening quincunx aspect. And so all four of those are sourced from the same refinement aspect.

epicenter or service epicenter of energy, which has to do with making sure everything is running smoothly and effectively and efficiently and is doing its practical job. And so

the kidneys even themselves are very much this filter system anyway, there's stuff going on with that, but then there's also Pillar Ten, which is the the authority pillar, or the rule pillar. And anyway, that's where professionals go.

Saturn, that's Capricorn, right? Which we haven't named it yet, but you do have a lot of Capricorn, so we'll talk about that in a second. Pillar Ted is Saturn, it's Capricorn, it's the 10th house, which is where your Chiron is. And it's the closing square as well, the waning square. And so, anyway, your Chiron is opposite your Saturn. So there is immediately this.

balance that is looking to be constructed between practical techniques, methods, ways of improving, ways of treating, ways of diagnosing, which you just described as I to take care of it myself unless it's an emergency. And then I will tr entrust myself to the professionals on that. But

So that's part of it. I think that's a little bit of that Chiron in Leo. I got this, I can fix me.

Ilana (09:55)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (09:55)

I can fix

me there, don't worry. I I'm I'm the I'm the authority over myself. thank you. I will fix me. And the counterbalance of your Saturn, which is an Aquarius, which would be more of the authority, the man, the professional, the doctor, if you will. but why I'm kidney stones, it looks kidney stones, it sounds kidney stones, even though I'm not necessarily retroactively trying to diagnose you. although

It's kind of funny. But your Saturn is conjunct your Ceres and your Venus. And in my system, Ceres is a planet that literally has to do with fucking density, boulders, rocks, stones, these.

tangible, thick, c calcified, c consolidated things, literal minerals, which is what a kidney stone is. and so it's just really fucking fascinating that your your Saturn is with that Ceres. It they're both in Aquarius, but s you were so you they were my brain's moving so fast my mouth is having a hard time keeping up.

But you mentioned something about it being r really subtle and it's at your fourth house. It's at your IC as well. So there's just something really interesting going on there between this diagnosis and I'm gonna fix me, but also having to

agree finger quotes to let someone else come in and have authority over your body and your safe you know I'm saying safety in the feeling safe inside of your body kind of way but yeah that's just really interesting and the fact that Ceres is right there being no no no we have to make this physical tangible

literally we have to get the stone. We have to move the stone. Anyway.

Ilana (11:37)

That's so interesting. And I in

medical astrology I remember I don't think it's Venus, but Libra is the kidneys.

Laurel Kassor (11:44)

Maybe I don't know. I wasn't I don't know medical astrology.

Ilana (11:48)

Yeah, I used to nerd out on I used to nerd out on medical astrology because actually oddly enough, the whole my whole journey of being more vigilant around my health and taking it into my hands and diagnosing myself and whatever started with Uranus squaring my natal Uranus when that was happening, when Uranus was in Aries, that transit, and Saturn was moving through my first house in Scorpio.

I was in college and I had some a few interesting kind of back to back health things that really completely redirected me. And I was okay, I'm pursuing natural medicine and

Laurel Kassor (12:23)

Mm.

Ilana (12:23)

I'm going to become a healer in that regard. But that, you know, there's different reasons for that direction having changed as well. but that is interesting because it has always felt very Saturn related for me.

And also that kind of sixth house coming in.

Laurel Kassor (12:36)

That alternative medicine

too, I think, with the connection. it's so this is such an interesting conversation. I promise we're gonna get to okay, how did you even begin though? yeah, so

Ilana (12:43)

So what's your

Laurel Kassor (12:45)

so tell me about how you were born. But before we get to that fun part,

Ilana (12:48)

Ha

Laurel Kassor (12:49)

it's it's it is really interesting to see how there are consistently connections between certain pillars that create certain ranges of outcomes. And this is how the fucking world works. You get these twelve essential ingredients. how many things can you make?

With eggs and fucking flour. You know what I mean? you get these essential ingredients and you combine them in different ways. And when you combine certain ones together, they can create their own little flavor that then can become its own fucking specialty and its own thing, and it become its own branches often. So I really do often see when pillar six meets pillar ten.

Which we have this would be in my system what I would kind of call a stack because you have Chiron in the house of Pillar Ten, opposite Saturn, who is the planet of Pillar Ten.

Right. So we're turning the volume up a little bit on the frequency of this authority energy, of this rule energy, of this limitation energy, of this boundary energy, of everything that comes under the whole umbrella of the Saturn, Capricorn, 10th house, waning square essence, which is actually a really great segue into Ilana's Sun, Moon, and Rising, which I usually say way long ago.

Ilana (14:03)

Well

I never I never finished the story of how I found existential kink, but essentially if anyone cares

Laurel Kassor (14:09)

I care, keep going.

Ilana (14:12)

I was in bed and I literally had the thought, I am getting off on this. there is a

Laurel Kassor (14:16)

Mm.

Ilana (14:16)

part of me that is enjoying this experience. And it just clicked. it was so obvious. I was There's a part of me that's enjoying this. And I was What? I have to I must I must have to read this book now. And so it was just kind of this natural invitation. And so I bought the book instantly, started reading it. You know, when she started promoting the certification not too long, literally that same year, I was I'm so in because

There is something here for me. And to this day, I I can't say that I practice my coaching and facilitation and space holding with my clients quite the way that I was trained inside of that certification because it was still very much black market therapy, a lot of the techniques that we were learning. And I was doing it for a while, but ultimately shifting now and lately towards working more exclusively with people who run online businesses.

Who are not looking for a therapy alternative in their personal lives, but are also wanting, because it's so natural, it's all connected, obviously, what is happening in your psyche and also the psyche of your business. And the way that existential kink and and really what I took away from it was how to embody an existential okayness. no matter what is going on in your life, in the world, you know? And I feel that.

If I have any claim to anything in this life, it's that. I know that I am at this point so fucking good at that, which doesn't mean that it doesn't test me. It doesn't mean that you know, I don't experience hard moments, obviously, but it's my truly my North Star, you know, coming back to this existential okay-ness.

Laurel Kassor (15:48)

So fucking juicy. And I love that you don't shy away from the hard parts of it or that you are consciously aware that it's it doesn't mean everything's gonna be sunshine and rainbows. there's still tests, there's still achievements, there's still a mountain to climb, right? there's still so much work to be done, but having that ability to be able to embrace and integrate and really the word

Two words are coming through right now. There's absorb, but also absolve wanted to come through as well. and that was one that came through first, actually. So absolve. take take that for whatever you will, but it feels really profoundly connected into so much of your chart, especially since you are a Capricorn sun, a Capricorn moon, and a Scorpio rising. And so there are so many things already in what you've named.

That just hello are very aligned with the just your sun, moon, rising trio. We actually don't spend a crazy amount of time talking about those on this podcast. But busin but what we mentioned, Pillar 10 already. So there is this strong feature that runs through you around, you know, we can boil it down to business, but it's so much more than that, you said,

I know and I say on this podcast that your business is an extension of your soul's journey or your soul syllabus. if you're here to be and exist on earth and you feel called to a soul-led path, that is because that it there's pieces of what you whatever your lesson plan is that are gonna bleed over into the work that you do. And so it sounds we hold that same stance, which is so beautiful.

So I would love to learn more about your origin story, if that's okay, so we can understand how you were made to do this work that you're doing.

And so it actually kind of connects back into the existential kink stuff. I think that if you know what we're talking about here, then it'll be interesting to see how this connects back into what you just shared about not only your journey to getting to your business, but what you currently are doing now. But in this technique I use,

We look for the first planet that fell, that falls in your birth chart after your ascendant, because basically it tells us what the first formative plot point.

planet is in your life, the first fractal of your energy that you consciously experienced as a really big template setting deal. And for you, that planet is actually Pluto. And you have Pluto and Scorpio, and it is in your first house. And get guess what? it's at the almost exact same spot in the first house that my Pluto and Scorpio first house is at. So that means that this first very

important define life defining, consciousness defining moment for you happened shortly after you were one year old.

it's possible you might not know because no one's fucking remembering. And if so, that's okay. and we'll we'll skip to the next formative plot point there. But is there anything that happened or that your parents know about that you've heard about that happened when you were around a year old, a little bit after a year old, that

would have maybe felt some some kind of scary, something that usually when it's Pluto and usually when it's Scorpio together and usually if it's the first house, it can feel survival is on the line. so is there anything that's coming to mind?

Ilana (19:18)

Yeah, so I I've looked back through this and at about a year there really isn't essentially there was I was born a little bit yellow, so there was a little bit of a uh-oh, is there some, you know, jawn is happening, but everything ultimately was fine. And then in the first year, I also was a very colicky baby, it sounds really, really resistant to being left with anyone that wasn't my

Parents. and I had a full body eczema outbreak. I essentially, as a as a young baby. And for the first few years of my life, and I know that that outbreak started at about a year old. So I don't know if that's the event, but it wasn't life threatening. It was just more what do we do about this? my dad had it as a kid.

And but at the same time, no one had really seen it all over the body, all over this this little baby's body. but again, it wasn't I don't know, there's so many different stories of eczema. And to be quite honest, we don't have to go down this rabbit hole, but I don't even really register eczema as a diagnosis properly. I think that there's just various different things that we call kind of skin adaptations and whatnot. But yeah, so it was just a rash. I had a full body rash.

Laurel Kassor (20:28)

That completely actually checks with

Ilana (20:31)

yeah.

Laurel Kassor (20:32)

it really does. It really, really, really does. and just to before I go into interpretation mode, just to note, it's it might not have been life-threatening for real, but to a baby's consciousness. It because remember it's how the infant is perceiving. If you were uncomfortable, if you were itchy, if you were in pain and you were a year old and there was no logic.

underneath that that could be a scary experience to an infant. But yes, okay, so your Pluto makes aspects. So what happens with these planets, not just the planet itself that we get the full frontal face of. Although that's definitely the the side of the kaleidoscope we look through is Pluto's lens. But any planet touching by aspect Pluto

you experience them for the first time too in a formative way because that Pluto aspect gets lit up and it creates that template.

pattern that groove of awareness psychologically which then of course feeds into how we make decisions which feeds into the lives we create and so your Pluto is in an extremely tight waning square a pillar 10 square to Chiron in Leo retrograde in Leo okay Leo represents the father retrograde represents the past that so that's funny this is something that your father had suffered with when he was a child coming

Back again, but through you. So that's just a side note thing. But it is in this really, really, really tight square, which carries a pillar 10 undertone I mentioned. And although I'm not super well-versed on medical astrology, I do know that Saturn rolls the skin. I

Ilana (22:11)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (22:12)

absolutely know that because I got a strong Saturn. I have some skin issues too.

and it's in the tenth house. Your Chiron is in the tenth house. And what did I say earlier? I the interesting things when Chiron and and Saturn get together, it does turn very medical in nature. It tend it tends to take on a of earth, you know, it's both they're both earth pillars in my system, so they tend to take on a quite a very physical way of being there. And so

That energy, it's also interesting because Leo does have to do with validation, it has to do with recognition, it has to do with confidence, it has to do with pride, right?

I had shared before we started recording my own first formative plot point moment story with you. And I'm not gonna rehash it here on air and take it all up, but one of the reasons my mom was so invested in getting me that care was because she could tell that it was hurting my confidence.

And she was, you know, she said she was I know that Laurel doesn't know conceptually s what self-esteem is, but she said that she could sense it hurting my self-esteem, the way people were looking at me and treating me differently. And so we're seeing here also a Pluto square to a solar feature.

here. Chiron in my system is a fix-it energy. It is about correcting things and making sure that things are working adequately and the way that they're supposed to, and mending and tweaking and adjusting things. So it's possible these early illnesses, what they

you know, again, infant conf consciousness. We're we're taking stabs here, we're speculating, but it is possible that

It could fe it might feel like there was something to fix about you. Just out of the gate. let's keep it simply. that there that there was just something that needed constant correcting to be.

Ilana (24:01)

totally. And I grew up with

that. I grew up with that that sense of I can't eat whatever I want because there might be yep. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. I

Laurel Kassor (24:06)

Creates the limitations, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ilana (24:10)

have to be very careful because it might give me a skin rash. a hundred percent. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (24:15)

That, that, that, that. And that might seem and again, this is why we do this. It might seem like, yeah, I was a baby and I had rashes You know, I've always had

But when you actually stop and get inside the head of well, what did that mean for me as an infant? how did I experience that? What did that set up for me? You know, we we're not fucking conscious then. Pluto's a big fat energy for a baby to face.

It's a very scary, perverse energy. It isn't particularly friendly, even when you got the spoons for it, you know? And so to have that immediately kind of set up this, you have to work really, really fucking hard to get it right, or else you won't be validated, or else you won't be.

you won't succeed at being a here, a human even, because these are, you know, the first house to me is a very fiery house. Leah's a fiery planet. and then of course this is a retrograde chiron, so it is going through an internal filtration process first, where it's what's wrong with me is is is stuff that I can't even necessarily control consciously. I wish I could control my skin consciously. You know, you know, but I can't.

but it sounds like as you had shared already, your journey did take you somatics.

Route there. So this could also be a feature that later played out into a skill. And that's what Chiron is. it's a problem at first, it's a problem that we can't help but and you were using these words earlier, which is why I know this is exactly the fucking energy diagnostics, to the assessments, the prescribe, right? that's what Chiron does. That's when we talk about going to the doctor, that's what they're they're like, does it

her okay take these meds come back in a week did it work no then we'll adjust and tweak the prescription go try again and we'll keep doing this until something works better until something works right that is this pillar six undertone that both chiron and Virgo on the sixth house and the opening quincunx all share together and so we're gonna scoot ourselves a little bit forward in time here

Presently, part of your work is to apply a detailed skill set in helping people to express themselves erotically, which is a very Plutonian thing, right? I know I'm skipping over to like, how did we go from

Scary Pluto to sexy Pluto, but that's about the reclamation.

Ilana (26:37)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (26:39)

Reclaiming your body, I'm sure was very I know I'm speaking for you, and I'm gonna open the floor back up to you here in a second. But I would be willing to bet

Ilana (26:44)

Ha ha ha ha

Laurel Kassor (26:46)

that part of the healing journey and process that this energy took you on was this self-expression journey that was you know what?

Skin be damned. I'm I'm reclaiming my right to just fucking be here and not have to maybe work so hard or the follow rules that don't up don't don't feel they help me but limit me instead. So I I'm wondering it do you feel there's a connection there?

Ilana (27:15)

absolutely. I think

With skin, so much of it comes down just thematically to, you know, being seen, right? Being perceived, because your skin is your outermost layer. And obviously there's so much happening on the layer of perception, internally, externally, the projections that we make when

We see people seeing us, but we obviously can't control how they're seeing us. And we want to control, but then we can't really control. And then at what point is your try is your, you know, and it's this is such a I imagine a big theme for Scorpio Rising natives as well. This whole I'm gonna control how people see me. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (27:55)

I

want to offer yes and yes and Chiron and Leo retrograde in the 10th house. Square your Pluto and Scorpio who rules your rising sign. Control is I it's a fine line. I my Chiron is in the ninth house. And so where I get very meticulous, particular, just a tweak, a just tweak is in interpretation.

Shocker, right? But I do think there is a very fine line between control Saturn and control Pluto. And I think that control Saturn is more about managing. And I think that control Pluto is more about dominating. And

I think that you have both going not you particularly, but your pillars. You have you have

Ilana (28:42)

yeah, totally.

Laurel Kassor (28:43)

you have pillar eight, which is Scorpio, Pluto, the eighth house, and the waning quincunx aspect.

It's all pillar eight, which again, you're Scorpio rising. We're here, we're sitting here talking about Pluto, who was one of the first formative planets for you, right? And then you also have this strong pillar 10 essence, too. So I think that for you, and and this is also why astrology is such a fucking cool kaleidoscope. We can only see the world through the lens of which we are looking at it through, right? So as you're talking about control.

It's both. It's yes, and it's this Chiron. You were speaking to me, at least specifically to the Chiron, which is I know that I can't control how other people see me. I can't manage their opinion of me or what they are gonna perceive me as in their head, right? And to me, that's more about the management quality of it, not about you will I just got an image of Galadriel from the fellowship of.

the ring when she goes all fucking Megatron mode and she's I will cower before the goddess and you will love me and fear me. that is not what I I feel is trying to come through here so much as it is I just wanna make sure that people perceive me in the way I'm intending to be perceived.

Ilana (30:00)

Mm, mhm, mhm, mhm.

yeah.

No notes. That's a big one. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (30:05)

Just something to chew on. I think that because Chiron is, in my opinion, very misinterpreted modernly. it's easy to miss that its job isn't to fuck everything up, you know, it's job is to

truly adjust and tweak and fine-tune things. It's just trying to craft something, you know? And so with your Chiron in the 10th house and in Leo, it's public image is what we're trying to craft.

But it has to go through this internal thing. And with Pluto in the first house, and I speak as a fellow Pluto in the first house native. One of the things I've come to really witness about myself and others, I know with the same placement, is that strangers are scary. For whatever reason, we internalize that strangers are scary. And we need to survive the mysteriousness out there in the world, the danger out there in the world, we have to survive that

here we see the square energy meeting where it's there are rules of surviving this big scary world, and I really need to manage how I'm being perceived while I do that. Otherwise I'm in more danger. How does that feel or fit or land?

Ilana (31:22)

It's funny because I feel so my series of life initiations, probably since just becoming an adult, have been have shown me I've been humbled so many times to at this point completely submit to however the world wants to perceive me. it's almost I've just embraced a more

flagellating, self-flagellating expression. And part part of what I bring to kind of my orientation when it comes to expression and communication, because that's a big part of what I work with clients on, is that this whole obsession with being authentic is so interesting to me because I as soon as being authentic starts to be your personality, it's no longer authentic. cause being auth what is authenticity? Authenticity is what's

Honest in the moment. And so when I think about how somebody chooses to show up and express themselves through their business, through their brand, so to speak, it's really comes down to what is the most honest performance you can put on, you know? Because if you are trying to create any type of any semblance of consistency, because you are establishing yourself as I'm a service provider in this realm, this is what I do, this is what I talk about, then

What is the most honest performance you're willing to give? You know?

Laurel Kassor (32:41)

I love that. Honest performance. I didn't even say the word performance earlier. What a Leo word.

Ilana (32:46)

Right? Exactly.

Laurel Kassor (32:46)

What a Leo word, right? Yes. my god,

nailed it. I say it every time. I'm no one interprets your birth chart better than you just telling your story. You literally just told us part of and obviously your journey's not done, ta-da. But you've told us how you have developed this square, which we were looking at from the infant point of view, where it's this is big and scary and it's really restricting me. And I have to

I have to master the craft of performing publicly in some way. And you just told us how you've taken those lessons over the course of your lifetime after many initiations, which by the way, first house word, pillar one word, where Pluto is, Mars word, Aries word, right?

And through those many initiations, you've faced this particular part of the syllabus again and again and again to the point where you have mastered it and now you're I'm an authority in this space. Tell you what, try to tell me something I know. And are now teaching it, which is so cool. And this brings us into that Saturn placement being opposite that Chiron, right? Because even though I would not say that your Saturn and your Pluto are in direct contact via square.

they're square by sign, but they're not they're

Ilana (33:59)

Yeah, it's not tight.

Laurel Kassor (34:00)

not close enough to touch I do think that they get tied in because your Chiron and your Venus are opposite each other, but your Venus is conjunct your Saturn. So Saturn kind of gets scooped up into the mix a little bit. So it does bring in a little bit of this extra hair about

that honest performance, but doing so in a way where it's you are aware of the perception, which is Saturn, Ceres, Venus, in Aquarius, which is part of that pillar 11. This like

awakening type of pillar that has a lot to do with perspective and it has a lot to do with awareness. And so it's you are aware of being seen, of being perceived at multiple levels. And you're aware there's almost kind of coming through now as part of the fears and of that of which you've overcome.

It feels humiliation or the fear of being humiliated, the fear of embarrassment is c it's just really rising up in here. those are the things that that would be part of why the existential kink would have spoken to you in the first place. You know what I'm saying?

Ilana (35:05)

One hundred percent.

That is the biggest that is really the biggest part of what I'm bringing through is alchemy through humiliation.

Laurel Kassor (35:15)

Mmm, that is so fucking juicy dude.

Ilana (35:18)

a lot of people refuse that. A lot of people refuse that. It is very polarizing because a lot of people are not comfortable with that kind of exposure. And for a lot of people, the idea of being an authority in this

Internet space, whatever kind of space, is let me put on as believable of a veneer about my expertise as I can to avoid humiliation. it's always to avoid humiliation. And I'm kind of no, if you want to actually access your full range of power and influence that comes through naturally.

at literally emanates through you, you have to face what you are terrified of being humiliated for.

Laurel Kassor (36:00)

Yes, dude. I fuck with that so hard.

Ilana (36:04)

And lead with it. Not just yeah, I'm like, I know I'm afraid of people finding out about this, or I know I'm afraid of being laughed at or you know, whatever. But actually no, can you let yourself feel that that fire of humiliation because that is alchemy. that is it right there.

Laurel Kassor (36:20)

Mmm That's fucking so

Juicy, and that is such highbrow integration of this fucking aspect that we pulled out that literally stems back to that first year of life. So, this is what's crazy about a fucking astrology. And I know you know because you are an astrologer too, but god damn, we're all just moments in time. We are all just one moment in time, given a chance to develop into a fully sentient life, and this is what you've done with that moment, that seed of something, and you will.

allowed it to unfold around you and you worked with it and you embraced it and you chiseled it into something really potent and really transformative and that's just fuck yes, I love that, I love that, I love that.

Ilana (37:04)

it sounds so clean and and you know, cohesive as you say it that when you say it that, but it was far from that.

Laurel Kassor (37:11)

no, the processes are messy, dude. Processes messy.

So in my sis I know this might feel a departure, but I think you'll really vibe with what I'm saying. with the way that I look at specifically pillar six, I look at everything in the axises as well as the individual pillars themselves. So I think of the access too. And I think about Pisces and I think about pillar twelve, you know, the return pillar or the transcendence pillar. And

It's the mess. It is the mess. It is the mess of be of trusting the process. that whole phrase to me is pillar 12 meeting pillar six. Trust.

The process, right? the process is supposed to be fucking messy. That's why pillar six is in charge of cleaning and organizing and shit that. we think a lot in the end result of something, and I'm guilty of it too. I mean, I've literally named the pillars for the end results of their processes, right? But when you are in process, it does not excuse you from going through the process itself, which is inherently messy, which is why we need a pillar to clean up the fucking mess of potential.

And actualize it into something practical and functional. And that's what Chiron does. And that's why I will never get off my soapbox about what a fucking awesome and essential essence it serves for us. Because the very things that we spend our entire life trying to fix, we become very skilled at because we become practiced at it. And it becomes part of our craft.

Let's leave Chiron alone for a second. I'll get off its dick for a second. I'm sure we'll come back to it. But there are other parts of your chart I really wanted to talk about too. part of me is well, we'll we should go chronologically, but no, we'll come back to it if it's if it comes back naturally. I wanna talk about how you have your moon, Uranus, and Neptune within one degree of each other.

Honestly less than a degree of each other in Capricorn in the third house. So with the ages, this would be about, let's say 10-ish,

Whatever this event could be something that happened at school. The third house has a lot to do with early childhood education, so that's one of the things. It could be something with siblings, it could be things with the neighborhood as well. this is Capricorn, so

I mean my guess would be that there's and let me there's something maybe something with your moon or I mean your mom. I said moon instead of mom. Maybe something with your mom as well. This could maybe feel getting lost. I've seen this kind of aspect of, especially with Neptune involved, something shocking, disruptive, confusing, and emotional.

Ilana (39:57)

Ten years old. Would that be circa fifth grade?

Laurel Kassor (40:00)

Yeah, just about. Yeah, fourth or fifth, which is about where this looks it's ranging.

Ilana (40:02)

Okay. comes

up

is around that time I started to notice through a very a few different kind of teacher experiences, but it was it was quite loud during fifth grade. the teachers I had were and we had a rotating, we had three kind of rotating teachers. We'd have our kind of home base and then we would, you know, switch classes for just three different periods and we'd come back to our main classroom in fifth grade. Anyways

Laurel Kassor (40:31)

Interesting.

Ilana (40:33)

And I had noticed this was the case probably my entire life, actually. every teacher that I had before I went to college and my classes were huge and my teachers, some probably didn't even know who I was. teachers were obsessed with me. But in

Laurel Kassor (40:46)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (40:46)

a way that was weird. And the weirdest w experience I had was in fourth, fifth grade, there was a teacher, a man, who made it very clear he was

He would be on duty doing things during the lunch break. And so he kind of knew who I was when I was in fourth grade. and I felt such a creepy energy from him from the very beginning. And then I remember being put into his main kind of class in fifth grade. And he was yeah, I requested you to be in my class. And I remember just being What the fuck?

Laurel Kassor (41:19)

god What the fuck?

Ilana (41:21)

And

Not really knowing what to to do or say about it. And he also had these really crazy mood swings where generally everything would be fine in the morning and he was this fun, interactive teacher, and then we'd go for lunch and we'd break for lunch and he would have his kind of lunch duties. And then we'd come back and it was a total flip of a switch. And he became the meanest, you say the wrong thing, and he just blows up.

And it was just this very unstable kind of energy. So very Uranous, what the fuck?

Laurel Kassor (41:49)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (41:49)

And I just remember being gripped with so much fear because on one hand I was trying to navigate, okay, what is this teacher student dynamic here? that's happening because it feels weird. it feels

Laurel Kassor (42:02)

Yeah.

Ilana (42:02)

more than just you're such a great student.

and so yeah, anyways. And so it was that, navigating that, and also navigating okay, so I'm receiving a lot of attention from this teacher, and he's also very scary half the time. And I don't know whether I need to hide or just it really was torturous. and yeah, obviously my classmates, we were all What the fuck? what is he doing? You know, when that would happen, my peers noticed as well.

Laurel Kassor (42:22)

Mm-hmm. So the other your other your peers n noticed as well. It wasn't and y'all con

conversed about it? Okay. Interesting.

Ilana (42:29)

Yes. Yeah. So there was that

kind of assurance of okay, it's not just me, but everyone would just be okay, what do th no one knew what to expect, right? Which is very you know, Uranian

Laurel Kassor (42:38)

Yeah, yeah, no tho

Ilana (42:39)

on state, super volatile, right? That kind of thing. So that's that's what comes to mind around that time. but additionally I would say I also remember, or I think I remember, just

Probably the way most nine, ten year olds do, feeling a way of coming into themselves, right? coming into a sense of self, a greater sense of self and a even just more access to a creative sense of self. I think I was starting to kind of write for myself and explore

Laurel Kassor (43:04)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Ilana (43:06)

kind of creative things in that way. So actually, yeah, it was more so starting to really cr cultivate that intimacy with my with my thinking, with my thinking, my thoughts. Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Kassor (43:13)

Your brain. Mm-hmm. Totally.

that makes that makes so much sense. It's so interesting. These periods are really multifaceted. and they are for us all in different ways. But especially when you have multiple planets combining into single s singular experiences. So there that I mean everything you just said totally totally tracks the

One of the first things that stood out that I wasn't expecting was the rotating cast of teachers. did you go to school in the United States?

Ilana (43:40)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (43:41)

Interesting. I just don't haven't heard of the elementary school teachers.

Ilana (43:45)

It was just fifth grade. We would just rotate

for social studies, math and science. But everything else we were in one class.

Laurel Kassor (43:50)

Interesting.

Ilana (43:52)

And it was just because they wanted us to get the experience of switching classes because when we entered middle school and sixth grade, we would be yeah. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (43:56)

They were training you. wow. That's fucking cool.

So, wow, weird. one of the other things I associate shocker, this moon, Uranus Neptune thing is connected to Chiron. because I started using Chiron words again. I was what the fuck? And I was yeah, there is a quincunx between your moon and Chiron there. So we'll we'll circle back to that. But what's

Interesting here is a few different things. The rotating teachers. I think of Neptune as this rotating, spinning, spiraling energy. So rotating teachers in this fifth place, you know, Capricorn is the professional, is the authority. A teacher is an authority when you're in school for sure. So, these rotating authorities, but unpredictable, as you were already pointing, pulling out for us, is very Uranus involved in the mix here. unpredictable, erratic.

surprising, shocking, but also the it also gives me the idea that the rules change often. and you learn that the rules can change often. This is would be kind of a period of time where it's okay

What? what when and where and how do you know again how to act, which is not I mean, well it is directly connected to the Chiron, but I was gonna say almost echoes some of those earlier motifs of there's a right way to be in the world to avoid getting hurt or avoid embarrassment. and now we're seeing because these guys, even though not, I mean, I guess

It's a kind of a loose sextile, but we could say you're your moon sextile Pluto, but either way, it's pulling back in this energy of hmm, danger. there's something dangerous going on here.

But now it's happening with peers too. And I think that the Uranus energy comes in there when it's well, at least we share this common thing. Right. that's very Uranian, that's very Pillar 11 to me. Aquarius, Uranus, 11th house, waning sextile aspect to me all have something to with a sh a shared kind of social dynam or social demographic, social construct, where it's we're

peers, So being part of the same class makes sense there. blah blah blah. But this unwanted attention is again this fucking Chiron. It's

Ilana (46:11)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (46:11)

again this Chiron retrograde in Leo. Because usually, you know, and this I think where we're seeing the retrograde quality come through the more we talk it out and through.

Typically, attention something people do want. You do want attention. But what you're finding through some of your earlier experiences is ooh, attention's kind of dangerous, actually. it's better if I hide. It's better if I fly under the radar in some way. And so this experience sounds it was kind of reinforcing some of those early rules, because this is all in Capricorn, right? So there is something about mm-hmm, this is just how it is. This is the norm of it.

people are weird and creepy and dangerous and attention can be also weird and creepy and dangerous, it turns out. and I do want it, but also I don't want it this. So there's nuance happening that again at a child's age might not understand that that guy might have been a fucking bit a little pedophilic there, you know? And so it's mm-hmm this doesn't feel right, but this is the norm. This is the rules. This is how it goes. This is

the control that the authority has

Over me and us, but then conversely, Neptune's involved here too. So there is escapism happening, and you escaped into your mind, it sounds and you started to become intimate with your mind and learn the constructs of your own inner world, and maybe get lose yourself into reading and I as you said, writing and fantasy and escapism and that kind of stuff as a way to do a little bit of coping and dealing with.

some of the strange emotions or these strange rules or these strange restrictions or limitations because at that young elementary schooler's age, you know, you don't ha

My way or the highway, buddy. I'm the teacher. You gotta do what I say, you know? No one's gonna listen to you. You're just a kid. It makes me think of Matilda. no one's gonna listen to you. You're just a kid. Yeah, so I'm gonna close my fire hose there. What what does that bring up for you?

Ilana (48:05)

I think it also that's probably when Harry Potter entered my life. I remember being gifted the four books on my birthday and I guarantee that was right during that time period. as well.

Laurel Kassor (48:16)

Magic.

Ilana (48:16)

And those books, that series was probably my one of my biggest fictional escapes. I was a I was a huge reader. I read a lot, growing up, but I I read those books two or three times in their entirety, you know. So long ago now. But

I feel that really

Yeah, I don't know. There was something interesting about that wor the world that she built in those books that touched me almost more than any other fictional world. And I think it was it was probably because it really spoke to kind of this not belonging experience, you know?

Laurel Kassor (48:49)

Absolutely. And that makes so much sense with the moon being there. The moon it's the planet of Pillar Four, the support pillar. It is about belonging. It's about where we come from. It's about w acceptance in so many ways. And I think when you have

A moon or any luminary in close contact with the outer planets, any of them, but especially Neptune, there is this interesting thing that this interesting kind of process and journey that ignites around accepting mysticism, accepting magic, accepting the unknown. and especially when Uranus is involved too, expecting the unexpected, ex accepting being different, and being alt othered.

in some way and it's again and and again this is because because you can never ever fucking ever separate the chart from the whole these pieces are just pieces of a puzzle, right? Back to get connecting to the Chiron. So back to echoing this earlier eczema skin thing in a different fractal in a different light through a different lens with new

rules attached to it and new processes attached to it as well. And this I think also connects forward to the work that you do, which is very much about saying fuck the rules to an extent and embracing what makes you different in the way that you think or exist or be or whatever, you know? so I think that there's a lot of this this experience that could be

Part of that

Losing yourself into astrology, right? we're both astrologers. Number one, we're both astrologers. We both have Uranus-Neptune conjunctions in the third house in Capricorn. There's a fucking reason that we're into mystical systems of perspective and traditional systems of perspective, you know? And I think that the moon being there too is creating containers for these different perspectives to exist.

yeah, so I mean I can keep going, but

Ilana (51:00)

yeah,

I love I love the moon as container. It's so it's such a crucial thing. yeah, any cancer placements are always just they need to have their containers.

Laurel Kassor (51:10)

They need to, and I think that that's the thank you for bringing that back up because I was there was what was I gonna say? This aspect is opposite your cancer Mars, which is also retrograde and in the ninth house. So you had mentioned before that there's always been this thing with teachers, with all of your teachers, right? And so this is actually really interesting because this moon, Uranus, Neptune, conjunction in Capricorn, third.

Opposite Mars retrograde in Cancer 9th brings in what I can imagine would be that feeling of paralysis that you were describing earlier when you were like I didn't really know what to do with that teacher

Well, there's these energies where there is something very much about protection coming into play. There's a kind of doubling up on some pillar four stuff because we have Mars in Cancer making an aspect to the moon. So we have Cancer and the Moon both involved in the same plot point, if you will.

And so there is something coming in around protecting your own mind, protecting your own wisdom, protecting your own knowledge and your perspectives as well, as not just allowing yourself to have them and have them be different, but also keeping them safe somehow too.

Ilana (52:29)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (52:30)

And I wonder if

I don't know why, but I'm feeling inclined to ask, did this come through in college a lot too, this kind of energy?

Ilana (52:37)

Not with the teachers because there wasn't it wasn't an intimate enough space for that to really come through.

Laurel Kassor (52:44)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (52:46)

actually I would say maybe the result of that was I felt pretty lost in college because it was this big school and I was I don't have I don't have these you know, pillars of teachers that are overseeing and you know,

It's not like I ever needed a teacher to hold me accountable to things, but it was more so I noticed the difference in my performance and my motivation when there wasn't an awareness that I was being perceived and kind of given attention to actually. And that's so funny because I bring this up now and I realize that's such a huge part of what motivates me in my in my work.

with clients is how to create containers for them to, you know, do their work with the people that they're serving that really don't compromise this quality of attention and significance. Because while of course it can be creepy in certain extremes, there's also

I think it's a huge ingredient, obviously, attention, receiving attention and you know, having a felt sense of recognition and significance from another person is so crucial to our thriving, you know, and to our ability to, yeah, create and evolve whatever it is that we're doing, you know. and so yeah, and I and I see that frequently compromised and very

high volume spaces, you know, that intimacy. and I've experienced that in my own life too, being at a very, you know, large university where that intimacy was was compromised. There was nobody holding you to anything. It was just well, what do you want? And I'm like, well, I don't even know what I want to be in college, actually.

Laurel Kassor (54:28)

Is such an interesting. there's so many interesting things you just said. One is the opposition. that is such a clear demonstration of one side of it or the other. we either have a structured sheltered

Constantly being watched for better or for worse

Ilana (54:47)

Yeah, being watched. Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (54:49)

energy as on one side of the opposition. And then we have the Mars retrograding cancer in the ninth on the other side, which is and then there's no one. Yeah, on your own, kid. Fly the coop. Good luck. You know? And I think that that's the retrograde quality. I still haven't found a solid way that I

feel attached to describing the general quality of retrograde. But I do feel when we see planets in retrograde, they do the function they're supposed to do, but they do it in a way that is subversive. and so Mars in Cancer is gonna do Mars in Cancer things, but you wouldn't necessarily out of the gate ex expect that to be

too big of a class, you know? wouldn't expect it to be the I've got abandoned.

here in s in school, but I did it, but I did, but I didn't. there is this interesting thing going on there about there being a balance between being sheltered and then the motivation, the doing it on your own, the independence. if we're not being nurtured to it, which I think would be the retrograde, having to go through a this additional internal filter where there might not have been one that you were experiencing in the early parts of the educational

Experience and then it comes through on the other end of it, which is the more collegiate spaces, which is a little bit more the ninth house spaces. But it's also really interesting because then you said that, do I even want to be in college? Which also makes me feel the retrograde coming through to be hold on, I've been doing this thing, but

Why? Like do I want to? is this coming from within or from without, you know?

Ilana (56:24)

totally. And the really the question of what is the source of true motivation that's not a byproduct of some kind of conditioning, you know, whether that's to belong in the sphere you don't even recognize you have a choice to belong, whether it's to belong in a you know, group that you maybe are consciously wanting to choose to belong to. but how essentially I think

We stray I don't even know if you can str if stray is the right word, but if you are on a soul individuation journey, I do think a big part of that is coming to understand and and really to decondition the source of your true motivation.

And that's been that's been the the the struggle of my life. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (57:11)

It's really relatable. It's very relatable. And I actually, we we haven't really mentioned it yet, but I know that you are currently dancing your way through a soul initiation right now. you said it was in South America, right?

Ilana (57:26)

Yeah, it was Latin America. I got as far south as Colombia, technically, and then I was I was intentionally going to come back. My sister was getting married. She got married this past October. And so it was always the plan to return for that. And then I got so enveloped in restarting and rebuilding my business that I was okay, this is really where my focus is at. And I invested in this, you know, mastermind and

was like, you know what? Because I sold all my things. I don't, you know, have a root place to live anymore. I was living, I had lived the past seven years in a rural town. I mean not super rural, but yeah, rural Central Virginia. and so, and I still go back to visit, I have, you know, beautiful friends and community there. But essentially, yeah, I had no no real anchor or solid base. So I've been nomadic since the beginning of 2025.

And so yeah, I've been staying with my parents for the last I guess, seven months now because I'm I don't want to be traveling while I'm on my computer so much of the time and not being able to take advantage of the spaces around me. but also there was definitely a lot of okay, this feels like a really big intentional redirect, especially because I'm in a 10th house perfection year, which obviously opposes my fourth house.

And

there's just there's been so much mother father archetypal healing that's been happening. And to be honest, when I look at the arc of what a soul initiation journey is, obviously there's different degrees of initiations that we go through, but in a lot of ways, and I think what a lot of Jungian scholars have looked at is the arc of the hero's journey, kind of the, you know, what are the passages of interfacing with the

Animus, anima, the masculine, feminine, mother, father, right? Because these plays such foundational shaping, yeah, they're just foundational shaping forces in your psyche. And where I'm at now is okay, well, I followed this dream to dance my way through Latin America because I fell in love with these dances. And also I will say that this dream emerged, it was the month before my paternal grandmother passed, and I literally was flooded with this.

huge light. literally, I felt it. I actually hit what felt a really dark place. kind of emotionally, existentially. And this was after I, you know, I had already been doing existential kink and working with clients and I had kind of essentially shut down everything I was doing because I was something isn't right. But deeply right. something is deeply not right with with what I'm doing here. and I think I need to pull back from everything and

really examine what's happening and really again back to examining my motivation because I was I am building a

Laurel Kassor (1:00:01)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (1:00:02)

business because as of twenty twenty, everything went online and that was, you know, where I was okay, this is what we have to do now. If you, you know, want to make money rel reliably, you have to have something going on online. And so I, you know, essentially went online after that, but then had to went through a process of deconditioning, what is it that I actually want to be doing?

What is it that I actually want to be working with people on, you know? Because again, it was you do a lot of healing work and then you have to heal from the healing work and right. And so there was there was a lot of that happening. but essentially I yeah, went to Dominican Republic with my maternal grandmother. and it was kind of this cute thing where I went with her and a few of her friends, and it was just like this amazing like old ladies and me at this resort.

and they

Laurel Kassor (1:00:44)

I love that.

Ilana (1:00:45)

were doing some dancing at the resort and that's where I was like, this is the dancing that my friends back home have been trying to get me to try because, you know, everyone always talks about it. So anyways, I kinda had this whole wait, it just kinda opened something in me. I was also healing from a heartbreak and so i this whole, you know, beautiful I don't know if you've ever seen them

You ever seen the movie Stella when Stella got her groove back? But it was something similar to that kind of a story.

Laurel Kassor (1:01:10)

Yeah.

Ilana (1:01:12)

So, anyways, I came back and I got really into dancing. And I actually when I was in that in the DR that December, this was December 2024, there was a new moon that was happening at the exact degree of my north node. New moon in Sagittarius, exact

Laurel Kassor (1:01:25)

Ugh, don't you love that? Mm.

Ilana (1:01:27)

degree of my north node. I remember because I was clocking it. And I on that day, I remember I was in the bathroom.

And this voice drops in and's like, why don't you go dance your way around the world and learn the dance of every country you visit? And I was What the fuck? That sounds really big But I had chills down my whole body. I was Whoa, that sounds insane. And I didn't actually make a move to do it f until another year because I was I'm not gonna uproot my entire life impulsively just because I had a little idea. and there were a few synchronicities act

Laurel Kassor (1:01:58)

Mm-hmm. That would've been very moon in

Capricorn of you.

Ilana (1:02:04)

I know, right? But it also

kind of would because I conjunct Uranus and Neptune, I've always been a bit of a wild card. So

Laurel Kassor (1:02:08)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (1:02:10)

so anyways, But there were a you know, a string of other synchronicities that happened. And so by the time that there was a full moon in Sagittarius later that May or June, I had a real interesting, green light confirmation that yeah, you're packing your bags, you're selling everything, and you're going. And I was Okay, I'm I trust it.

And so that's what happened. and so I've been kind of in this place for the last, yeah, for for the better part of this year, 2026 now, where I've just been locked in, kind of focused on my work and really just rebuilding, re-establishing who I am, what it is that I do, even though it's based on, you know, years of accumulated skill and experience. So it's not I'm starting from scratch, but it definitely was a little bit of hey.

Back online, you know, don't

Laurel Kassor (1:02:56)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (1:02:56)

don't really have anything. and so yeah, so I've been in that place and I actually just recently received an invitation the week that I received your invitation to do this interview, it was the day of the Venus-Jupiter conjunction in Cancer. Ugh.

Laurel Kassor (1:03:09)

My gosh, what a great day. That was

Ilana (1:03:13)

it was a it was a good day. It was an interesting day. And I just remember I was not nothing really big happened that day until I was sitting in my friend's kitchen. I was visiting in the evening. Yeah, yeah. So

Laurel Kassor (1:03:21)

Seeds. Seeds planted.

Ilana (1:03:24)

I'm sitting in my friend's kitchen, everyone had gone to bed, and I'm just kinda you know, doing some stuff online. And I

co just made a comment on a friend's story and we had been kind of chatting because she lives in this beach town in Mexico that I've been kind of considering checking out to visit as a potential next place to anchor so that I can continue essentially taking trips to go dancing in some of the countries that I haven't gone.

dancing yet and would to go to. but not just show up with all my stuff and be okay, I guess I'm gonna live here for a few weeks. Because that was fun initially, but it also became very, you know, destabilizing. So, anyways, and this beach town happens to be right on my Jupiter ascendant line, which I've never like I

Yeah. Yeah. Well so what's interesting is I first I thought that she lived somewhere else entirely in Mexico and I so when I found out that she was there, I was that's so interesting. And then I responded to her story, which was just about the weather. It was literally just

Laurel Kassor (1:04:11)

Mm-hmm.

Ilana (1:04:12)

about the weather. It was yeah, rain, whatever. And I was How's the weather in August? And she's you know, sends me a message back and she's actually, if you want to stay at my place, I'm planning to be gone for a month and if you wanted to watch my pets, and I I was actually doing a

Laurel Kassor (1:04:24)

Say last bitch.

Ilana (1:04:25)

I was doing a lot of that when I had been, you know, on my initial leg of the dancing and the traveling. So I was doing quite a bit of house sitting and pet sitting. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (1:04:35)

Gosh, that's so fucking cool.

Ilana (1:04:37)

And so wait, my gosh, wait, get this. So okay, okay. This is the last time I was in Mexico was August. I I left, I flew out, I was there for a month and a half, and I flew out on August first, twenty eighteen.

The nodes were in Leo and Aquarius,

I'm pretty sure Mars was doing a painful ass retrograde in Aquarius that summer. Yep. Cause I remember I was

Laurel Kassor (1:04:57)

It was. It sure as shit was. I remember.

Ilana (1:05:00)

this is brutal. And I was I was in the similar place of I am looking for where my next move is, my next big move. Cause

Laurel Kassor (1:05:06)

Yes, yes.

Ilana (1:05:08)

again, fourth, fourth, tenth house, right? Angular, serious,

Laurel Kassor (1:05:10)

Yes.

Ilana (1:05:11)

you know, locational stuff happening. and so yeah, my gosh.

So I I flew out on August 1st. And I remember flying out and being yeah, I'll definitely be back. And I flew out on August 1st to be able to make it to a family beach trip with the rest of my family. I think this was the last family vacation we've taken since. and we went to the beach for a very long time. It was 12 days or something. And down there, I met somebody that essentially catalyzed my move to Virginia, which was where I ended up living for the next seven years. And we met

Laurel Kassor (1:05:38)

my god.

Ilana (1:05:40)

on

It was a Mercury retrograde that was happening. I think it was the cazimi with yeah, Mercury in the sun. It was August 8th, which was a Lionsgate portal too or whatever. You remember that day 2018? Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (1:05:48)

I remember exactly that day. I yes. I remember that day.

Ilana (1:05:52)

And so get this. I fly in to Mexico on August 2nd.

This time around.

Laurel Kassor (1:05:57)

Dude.

Ilana (1:05:59)

It feels like I'm literally stepping back into a timeline.

Laurel Kassor (1:06:02)

You are well

the nodes are about to this I'm fucking freaking out over here trying not to cut in at every fucking second.

Ilana (1:06:09)

Isn't that insane?

Laurel Kassor (1:06:10)

But the nodes are about to switch. We're about to have the retur the no the reverse normal return of those nodes from from that time period. I had just moved to Baltimore. there is so much resonant, we are definitely on the beginning of a new era here and it's a very big new era collectively, blah blah blah. But

twenty seventeen, eighteen, whatever that was, there was the a mini eras opening there too. And it just feels like there's a lot that is coming back to roost And we're also Jupiter's return to the tenth house soon for for you too. Well it's it's you know

Ilana (1:06:46)

And Jupiter was

in Scorpio that year, I remember. So again it was that fixed angular Jupiter transit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurel Kassor (1:06:53)

Yes.

man, there's there's so much

That's sending your chart ping-ponging. Cause I brought us up to Mars. That was what I was asking about. Was like, okay, your Mars is in retrograde. It's in cancer. Blah blah blah. It's in the ninth house. The dancing trip abroad. Dancing abroad. Movement. Mars is movement. Mars is literally moving your body. Abroad is the ninth house. And then when I asked, you told us all these amazing stories about the living situations around this trip, which is so the cancer coming.

through there and even this circling back around to

To house sit, right? you are you were staying at at someone's house, you're going to go stay at someone's house to house sit, which is a responsibility. You're not just going to vacation. There's our Capricorn coming in. we can't just go to have fun to have fun. We can't just travel to travel. We also have to make sure we're working just a tiny bit, but it's not a big deal. I just need to live in the house, you know. it's interesting the way that that's coming in. It's interesting that these are coming in dreams with Neptune involved in the moon.

Uranus conjunction opposite to the Mars. Mars is in quincunxes This is also fun. We haven't really talked about these guys yet, which is a perfect little jump forward. And this will probably be the aspects we land our ship on here. But you have, and we mentioned them earlier: Saturn, Ceres, and Venus conjunct in Aquarius and on your IC.

Several different ways this is already showing up in the story. and they're in a quin conch that Mars up there. So they're directly tied in. one of the things is you kept talking about the online business and how you need to have money. If you're gonna make money consistently, you gotta be online. that is very Saturn conjuncts Ceres to me. in my system.

Ceres is the planet that rules over all Taurean things. It is the planet of Pillar Two, not Venus. You happen to have them conjunct in in less than a degree. So for you, they're not really anything different or new here. the interpretation would mostly be very similar. because they're melded for you. The energy of

Collaboration and partnership and polarity and ownership and possession and resources would be mixed in with one another. But Saturn says, business, hello. If we want consistent, stable resources, we have to go online, which is the Aquarian bit of it, but also working from home is the fourth house part of it. As someone who also has Saturn on my IC in Aquarius, hey,

Ilana (1:09:27)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (1:09:28)

what a

But also the idea of home being somewhere distant, too. I think pulls in some of that Aquarian energy, as well as this kind of this quincunx to Mars, which is and also in retrograde, the whole idea arrived to you. We're gonna dance our way across the world, we'll take action on it when it's the proper time to.

And then this quincunx is kind of being but you gotta figure it the fuck out, dude. Because it has this well, there are two different types of quincunx going on here. There is the Ceres Venus waning quinx to Mars, which is got a pillar eight undertone. So Pluto, Scorpio, Eighth House, and then this aspect all have this kind of

dig it up, esc excavate it, transform it, heal it, kind of energy, right? and then there is a waxing quincunx from Mars to Saturn. So you have both varieties all jumbled up.

Here, because of the planetary speeds, they move at different speeds, So it changes who's who's opening and closing. Anyway, Saturn is wagging its finger at Mars. It's you gotta fucking figure out how the hell you're gonna be a professional who fucking dances across the world. How you gonna make that happen, bitch? How you gonna make that happen? And then Venus and Ceres are looking at Mars and then they're like, We'll give it all up for you. We'll detach from everything we've ever known. If it means we can go follow.

this thing that that's gonna expand us somehow. I also find that people with Ceres and Aquarius have a really unique relationship with possession and with ownership. because Aquarius is not a particularly possessive sign. so these themes can be around into more about intellectual property or the owning a perspective, owning a way of seeing the world.

rather than stuff and things. Doesn't mean that we don't care about stuff and things. We do appreciate our stuff and our things. But it kind of says that the processes of

of worth, of value, of ownership, of be of resourcing oneself is going to be more explored through collective engagements or innovative or alternative perspectives than it would be in let me just get a house and I'll be happy with my house. It's no, we need to

be able to root into something that has movement to it. especially with that Mars connection. But it might mean giving something up or he or transforming something or there being some kind of underworld journey that goes along with the process.

of the exploration and it being an inner exploration of some sort too, 'cause that retrograde takes things and and spins it a little bit. So that's just so interesting to me that it's there's so many different features team teamed up here. And then of course I could keep going, but Mars is in a quincunx to your north node and you're

Mercury in Sagittarius. So there we go. More piling on this pillar nine of expansion, of travel, of exploration, right? Of finding and to me this really about you going and doing the work to find your inner wisdom and then

disseminating that and creating movement through that. I think you it's clear that you do that, at least to me it's clear that you do that with your clients because you're kind of disseminating what you've learned from your internal processes and from your internal journeys and from your very physical journeys too, because those are symbolic for the internal journey that you're on. And taking that creating safe spaces for your clients to expand and and I'm seeing spinning, I'm seeing twirling

You're almost giving them permission to dance inside of their own marketing or dance inside of their own business. Does that make sense? What I'm saying.

Ilana (1:13:18)

a hundred percent.

Yes. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And to dance with you know, the different archetypal expressions that are coming through, which is why we look at the chart because I I no longer, you know, work astrologically in the sense of this is what this means about you and this is what's gonna happen and here's what you can look out for. I did that for a while. But I actually, yeah, had a whole in that

time of needing to leave everything behind. I even left astrology behind for a bit and really shut it off. Cause I don't know, maybe you can relate to this. you can get so engrossed in a system of perception for so long and you realize wow, I've really been pigeonholing and my per my perception now

On this great mystery has gotten quite narrow. You know, I'm seeing everything through this lens over and over and over again. And so I had to really cut my reliance, my over-reliance on that lens. And I was so over-reliant because I wanted to really just obsessively understand, right?

Laurel Kassor (1:14:12)

Mm.

Ilana (1:14:13)

And really get to see those patterns really well. yeah. And so at this point, I'm more interested in how we relate to the different archetypes that are expressing.

through yeah, through our chart and how we can dance with them in our expression, through our work, through our I mean ultimately everywhere in our lives, but

Laurel Kassor (1:14:33)

I absolutely completely agree. I can really relate. I never stepped back from astrology, but I have switched systems within it several times. And that those those were aligned with Pluto moments in and transits for me, when Pluto squared my Mercury and therefore also my Ceres and my sense of ownership and possession and anchor to the world. and my AC and my DC. that was when I had

started taking psychological the academy of psychological astrology and was beginning to divorce from Hellenistic because I also used to practice traditional and Hellenistic with a flair for psychological and then now I practice my system which is a birthed from

My evolution upon the psychological astrology that I learned there. But it was devastating to go through that process of holy shit, I've been seeing the world this one way, or I've, you know, I've convinced myself this was the right way or the most accurate way, the most truthful, objectively truthful way to see it. And I'm

s witnessing I'm wrong.

Ilana (1:15:42)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (1:15:42)

I'm witnessing there's this other way of doing it. And so yeah, that that's part of my my personal journey with that. But once I surrendered, which it sounds you also did some of that surrendering to yourself to decide what felt right to you and what felt true to you and come back and take what worked and leave what didn't,

You know, sometimes they're big inhales and sometimes they're long exhales, and you can't really tell what's a contraction until after the next expansion, you know? So it feels a little bit that too. but wow. Holy moly, Ilana thank you so much. I had so much fun. I feel I

I really feel we barely scratch the surface of anything to be honest with you.

Ilana (1:16:23)

Right.

Laurel Kassor (1:16:24)

Feel there's so much more we can go into depth with, but I to me it's it's clear You were made to do this work, you were absolutely made to help guide people through these processes of being able to step fully and authentically in the true sense, not the performative sense, but into what is going to help them execute.

their expression and their brand. So I just love your story. Thank you.

Ilana (1:16:53)

Thank you so much.

Laurel Kassor (1:16:55)

Absolutely. And where can the people find you so you can crack their businesses wide open?

Ilana (1:17:03)

my gosh.

Well, what an honor. you can find me on threads. My handle is @ I L A N A dot K H I N is my full name. I'm also on Instagram. And yeah, I'm currently opening up as we're recording this, I'm opening up a in the process of opening up a free space for people to kind of jump in and explore my world. and so by the time this airs, that will be all up and

receiving. but yeah, that's that's where you can find me.

Laurel Kassor (1:17:31)

Perfect. Thank you again so much for sharing this space and your time with me today. And hey, if this episode got you thinking about your own birth chart, I would love to support you out there too. I offer readings. You can always get started on my website by grabbing the free What the Fuck Am I Looking At? birth chart cheat sheet and kind of go from there. And don't forget to stay in orbit by subscribing, leave a comment and let me know what's landing for you. And of course, sprinkle some stardust on us by sharing this podcast with the Astro Hoes

in your life. You can find me at soularcastrology.com on threads at astro underscore Aries or on Instagram at soulark underscore astrology. Until next time, seekers ad Astra