EP 10 Rebuilding Reality: Returning to the Body After Psychological Abuse with Kirsten Mah

>> LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PLATFORM <<

EP10 - Rebuilding Reality: Returning to the Body After Psychological Abuse with Kirsten Mah

She was taught that being punished meant she was loved. Then she survived eight and a half years of coercive control from a partner in active drug-induced psychosis — isolated, financially drained, and told there were people trying to kill them both.

In this episode, Kirsten Mah — Canadian army veteran, solo mom of three, and creator of the Cosmic Mechanics astrology software — joins Laurel to trace her chart back to a formative moment at just one year old, through childhood religious trauma and dissociation, into an intimate partner violence survival story, and out into the trauma-informed massage therapy and medical astrology practice she's building now.

In this episode, Kirsten Mah, astrologer and future RMT, joins Laurel to talk about: intimate partner violence recovery, boundary-setting after abuse, trauma-informed bodywork, and building an astrology software from scratch.

What you'll walk away with:

— Why "you need a sense of self before you can set a boundary" is the actual mechanism disordered relationships exploit — not a self-help platitude

— How a single childhood punishment can wire a nervous system to equate pain with love, and what it takes to unwire it

— Why Kirsten now treats astrology, medicine, and the body as one interconnected system instead of separate specialties

Chart tease: Kirsten's Pluto-Ceres conjunction in Sagittarius in the 5th house is the throughline of her entire story — the same placement behind an early wound around touch and pleasure is now driving her toward trauma-informed bodywork as her life's work.

CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Cosmic Mechanics and Personal Journeys

01:41 Kirsten's Journey into Massage Therapy and Astrology

04:20 Exploring Early Life Influences and Family Dynamics

06:43 Formative Events and Their Impact on Identity

12:33 The Connection Between Pain, Pleasure, and Self-Expression

22:51 The Transformative Power of Touch

24:41 Planning for the Unexpected

27:06 Navigating Trauma and Safety

29:56 Chiron and the Quest for Fairness

31:24 The Influence of Religious Authority

33:55 Understanding Libra Energy and Relationships

37:34 Balancing Complex Systems

41:18 The Journey of Self-Expression

45:31 Cosmic Self-Discovery and Astrology

47:03 Exploring Childhood Influences and Family Dynamics

48:04 Navigating Relationships and Personal Growth

54:23 Healing and Rebirth: Overcoming Trauma

01:03:50 Understanding the Impact of Beliefs on Relationships

01:04:11 Navigating the Aftermath of Personal Transformation

01:05:23 The Role of Therapy in Healing

01:06:14 Music as a Catalyst for Emotional Release

01:09:40 Understanding Anger and Suppression

01:12:49 Touch and Intimacy in Healing

01:16:24 The Importance of Self-Identity in Setting Boundaries

01:18:53 Integrating Life Lessons and Personal Growth

01:21:39 Innovative Approaches to Healing and Therapy

ABOUT KIRSTEN MAH

Kirsten Mah is a Canadian army veteran, solo mom of three, and the creator of Cosmic Mechanics, the astrology software Laurel uses and recommends. She's currently training to become a Registered Massage Therapist, building a practice that integrates bodywork, medical astrology, and trauma-informed healing. Website: cosmicmechanics.com Threads / Instagram: @the.heartcore.healer

Laurel Kassor (00:11)

Welcome to Orbit Seekers. This is episode ten of Made for This with Laurel Kassor.

The podcast where soul-led practitioners, educators, and creatives come together to connect the constellations of how astrology turns from abstract insight to real-world impact when you follow your soul's arc. I'm Laurel Kassor, your astro oracle host and the founder of Soul Arc Astrology. And today I have a badass and rising star, Kirsten Mah Kirsten is a Canadian army veteran, solo mom of three, and a survivor of intimate partner violence,

Kirsten is a life coach, astrology nerd, and the creator of Cosmic Mechanics, which is the very same astrology software that I use and am totally obsessed with. Currently studying to be a registered massage therapist that integrates body work with medical astrology and trauma informed healing, Kirsten is someone who took the most devastating chapters of her life and literally crafted a whole new world out of them. And her chart makes it pretty damn clear she was made for this. Kirsten, thank you so much for.

joining me.

Kirsten (01:13)

Thanks for inviting me.

Laurel Kassor (01:14)

My pleasure, my friend. Kirsten, I am so excited to learn more about your journey. So I don't know a lot about your past, and I'm really excited to hear the makings of how you made such a very user-friendly and attractive.

astrology software because honestly I think if there are other astrology nerds out there in the audience they understand that solar fire very functional but also very dated and so I love I love what you've done with the place.

Kirsten (01:42)

Thank you. That was also my thought. I wanted to make a modern one.

Laurel Kassor (01:46)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten, will you tell us a little bit more about the work that you do and what brought you

Kirsten (01:53)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (01:54)

into the massage therapy training?

Kirsten (01:58)

Good question because I feel with having my Jupiter and Capricorn, it's really hard for me to access anything lucky. So

I have found that it's very much I gotta build anything if I want anything.

so I ended up in the military for ten years. but I was going into that because I heard that they paid for med school. So

Laurel Kassor (02:19)

Mm.

Kirsten (02:20)

I wasn't gonna have any help from my parents with my post secondary, so I someone told me, Hey, the military pays for med school. turns out you have to already be accepted into med school in order to use that option.

so I switched my application to medical technician, basically just a medic.

Laurel Kassor (02:37)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (02:39)

and it was my first boyfriend that convinced me to remove that application and switch to reserves and that's how I ended up doing HR for ten years.

Laurel Kassor (02:49)

Okay.

Kirsten (02:50)

yeah. A little loophole though with the reservists, at least the way it works here in Canada. I didn't have to get posted anywhere, I could stay.

in my local area i ish.

So that was nice. But yeah, basically I I already wanted to go into medicine and I had a whole side quest and now we've gone back to medicine. when I was a kid I loved the library. That was my favorite place ever. But at some point I was getting massage books and practicing on my sisters and my my mom and I had my little

list of prices for my spa. I did lots of business play.

Laurel Kassor (03:24)

Ha business play

is so cute. I love that. Aha,

Kirsten (03:30)

I love massage, I love medicine, I love the human body, also the Jupiter Capricorns in the sixth house, so duh. yeah, it's a puzzle. It's very similar to astrology, the way it works in my brain.

thing, yeah, it's

The human body is very complex. all the little pieces work together a puzzle and different things get activated at different times. So astrology is that with all the different pieces working together and I love it. I love it so much.

And then seeing the crossover between the two. I love it. The more complexity, the better.

Laurel Kassor (04:03)

I love that it really

does show up in your chart. And we'll we'll talk about that. You've already named a couple of different things in the chart that I was already eyeballing. I don't want to get ahead of myself. So we'll start at the beginning to understand a little bit more about the template

and the patterns in your chart that you know.

give you this orientation towards being attracted to the complexities of life and these jigsaw puzzles of the body and why you were attracted to medicine in the first place. I think that's already I can already see a couple of different things showing up there.

Kirsten (04:39)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (04:39)

In

order to get us started, I do to let everyone know your sun, moon, and your rising sign. So Kirsten is a Leo Sun, a Taurus moon, and a Leo rising. And to kind of take us back to the beginning of your story, I to use this technique that I learned called the developmental age method. your chart

The idea is that that's when there was a big important formative plot point in your life that would have occurred and kind of set in motion this life story and this path that you are pursuing. your chart actually happened quite early. And it is the sun in Leo in your first house. Based on my calculations, you would have been about a year old

This event could have had to do with a couple of different things or infinite ways that it can all come through,

So we would be kind of looking for some notable thing that might have to do with your father potentially. might have to do with visibility or performance in some way. and remember would

be from an infant's vantage point. So is there anything that comes to mind?

Kirsten (05:52)

probably the munya, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's a Chinese baby shower sort of thing. Which Yes.

Laurel Kassor (05:58)

They throw it after the baby is born. Okay.

Kirsten (06:02)

That's supposed to be a hundred day baby celebration.

Yeah,

I might not have I might not have information on that.

Laurel Kassor (06:11)

Okay.

Kirsten (06:11)

On my first birthday.

Laurel Kassor (06:13)

Okay. There was nothing that your parents ever said this thing happened at one. your parents were still together. There wasn't any formative thing that you were that you were made aware of.

Kirsten (06:23)

No.

Laurel Kassor (06:24)

Okay. Okay then. We'll go on to the next one there. and we'll see if how where and how we come back to that sun.

in Leo thing when this technique was f when I was first asked about this I didn't have an answer. I was like, I don't know. I don't how am I supposed to know? Because mine was at a year

old as well. and it turned out that I had surgery.

probably my dad - he was like an alcoholic before my dad - he was like an alcoholic before And yeah, I was given anesthesia and all kinds of stuff, and it was a pretty dramatic experience, it turned out for me. But I didn't But this thing would have been but it would have been the first time the square between your sun and your moon would have been activated for you. So it does look it could have been something between the parents, as the sun represents father and the moon represents mother. so do with that what you will, what you will there.

Kirsten (07:16)

Probably my dad, he was an alcoholic before - I didn't find this out until recently - And apparently he decided

he decided to stop and that was after I was born. So that might actually be it.

Laurel Kassor (07:27)

Okay, so you're thinking that maybe it has something to do with your dad stopping drinking. Okay, this is really

Kirsten (07:35)

To provide stability.

Laurel Kassor (07:38)

Okay, this is really interesting. That that could be it. I can see that this would have been

A moment and remember, a year old, you don't actually have the sophisticated thinking skills to understand what the fuck's actually going on. You're just perceiving shit, you know? And so

What what is interesting is that this is when that sun in Leo in the first house would have been activated. And it would have activated a square from the moon in the tenth house to your sun there. It also would have activated your Saturn, which is in a trine to your sun

and the sextile between your Sun and your chiron also would have been activated at that time. So even if you were an infant, you are were likely connected in with your mother enough, or with your needs enough, or with the survival instincts of the environment in some way where likely.

You were sensing tensions between your mother and your father already, especially if she gave him some sort of ultimatum, which is what I'm thinking that square between the moon and the sun

and I say ultimatum because this is pillar ten. Pillar ten is the pillar that it consists of Capricorn and Saturn and the tenth house, which is where your moon is. So we have features of pillar 10 kind of piled up here at this opening moment, which is why I'm like,

I really was hoping we'd be able to figure out what it is. And so I'm happy that you were able to be like, wait, actually, yeah,

something did happen then. Because Pillar Ten is known to for, its earlier experiences, to be rigid, to to deny things, to and it with the moon involved too, to withhold,

And so we have the 10th house, we have the waning square involved here. It's coming from the moon to the sun. So withholding the child, literally, maybe with threatening to keep I you know, again, this is just me hypothesizing out there and speculating, but if your mother was threatening to be like, you cannot have her, you're dangerous. You need to get your shit together, which is something Pillar 10 would definitely say.

Get your act together. Discipline, hard work, effort.

Sobriety is a Saturnian 10th house thing as well. sobriety is for sure. that could a hundred percent be that thing you were picking up on, and having fun the way one wants to have fun. sun and Leo can butt heads.

need structure or else they get wild or impulsive, right? the first house is associated with pillar one.

Which is associated with Mars and with Aries. So potential violence at at the extreme level could even be like mom was like, uh-uh, you're not getting drunk around this child if you're gonna act like that. Threaten us, hurt us.

Kirsten (10:33)

yeah, so fun

fact, only fire and water in their personal planets. And they have Mars Square Saturn. Aries, Mars, Square Capricorn, Saturn.

Laurel Kassor (10:43)

Wow. And so what was that like?

Kirsten (10:44)

They were fighting all the time. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (10:46)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So there we go. I can as we're unpacking this a little bit more, the event, the formative event was likely an ultimatum.

Kirsten (11:00)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (11:00)

But you were also likely before that.

We just live in a world where mom and dad fight. What do you mean? That's normal.

Kirsten (11:06)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (11:06)

That would have been normalized.

Kirsten (11:08)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (11:09)

we just live in an environment where moon and sun fight each other. where moon's trying to gain control and regulate.

And have a semblance of stability and sun's out there having fun. you have the sun in Leo, right? So it's doing what I want to do, expressing how I want to express, etc. Right. And then that square aspect from a tenth house moon.

To a first house Sun is kind of representing this essence, this pattern, this template of like, if you want to be masterful, if you want to be an adult, be act like a man, I bet. feels something energetically at least that would maybe would have existed in the early ether of life

Kirsten (11:52)

no, that was

that was a theme until a few years ago. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (11:57)

Yep. Yep. Yep. And

this is interesting. And I'm sure we'll get into some more ways later, but you know, this isn't the only aspect that got activated at that time.

the sun is in a waning sextile to your Chiron. Now we're definitely gonna talk about your Chiron because it is

very closely connected to your north node. And in my system, we treat Chiron not as a wounded healer, but as the planetary force of Pillar Six.

the refinement pillar. So Chiron to me is a fix-it planet. We gotta make this better. We gotta correct something. We gotta practice something. at the same time, that you would have also sensed this, I can imagine was a big ultimatum that you may have been present for physically or certainly emotionally present That it also

inspired something in you where you're like, shit can get fixed. Hmm. Interesting. Neat. Huh. Wow. You can adjust things.

Kirsten (13:02)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (13:05)

You can tweak things if you don't like them. Wow. Huh. Interesting. So that was something also

Kirsten (13:10)

Ha ha ha.

Laurel Kassor (13:11)

that might have been activated because the waning sextile here brings a pillar 11 essence to it. It brings this awakening essence to it. This aha

where you can see interconnections too. And then of course that the sun in an opening trine to Saturn, which says, you just need to express self-fucking control over your impulses, duh. That's it. That's all you need to do. That that I I can do that. Watch me do that.

it's it would be indicated in the chart that something did shift then. And you learned, self-control is an interesting phenomenon. And it also connects into your Saturn being in Aries. I say that because you have the Sun and Leo trying Saturn but connected to the moon in the tenth house.

So there's this echo of Pillar 10's energy, this authority energy, this controlling energy, this managing energy, where it's like, I'm gonna be challenged by my emotions to get my impulses under control. And then Saturn in Aries shows up and is like, You said you need someone to help you get your impulses under control. I'm here. What up? How is that landing for you? what does that bring up for you?

Kirsten (14:20)

a there's a theme that I keep thinking about which is the I will tend to not express myself or do fun things unless I feel I'm financially stable. And until I am, I will completely obsess over things that will hopefully make money or move me towards making money.

Laurel Kassor (14:37)

you do have a Pluto Ceres conjunction in the fifth house in Sagittarius. Now, the reason why I immediately pinballed us down here is because.

You were speaking directly to your financial state. You were speaking directly to obsessing. You were just speaking directly to having fun and obsess and and expressing yourself. That's Pluto, that's Ceres as the fifth house you just named. that you won't let yourself move forward and expand. There's your Sagittarius right there until you feel financially sound and safe. Your Ceres, Ceres in my system in Solar Castrology, is the ruler of Taurus, therefore, it is the one.

giving information to your moon, who is square year sun. So this conversation about the money stuff is connected to the emotional stuff.

Because the emotional stuff is expressing itself in Taurus. The moon is in Taurus, which says, are we stable though? And that is asking Ceres, are we stable though? And she's like, Fucking no. Pluto standing next to me, breathing down my neck, saying that if I don't transform something into money, into stability.

Into support, then hell no, we're not going to feel safe expressing ourselves, and therefore it's gonna be finger quotes impossible to move forward or expand there. Now, there is a direct age that this energy populated, in your life

But I do before we like skip forward many years from like the time you were one, I do want to just echo back that these earlier themes, they set these templates. So this doesn't mean that this is how it is still.

It doesn't mean this is how it has to be moving forward. This is just how we're beginning to learn these lessons. I like to think about it like the first few pages of a book, right? a problem gets set up. It's not much of a book if there isn't conflict involved, right? And so at the beginning of our life, we're kind of getting a it is our first rodeo. You know, we are kind of getting the shit end.

we're not sophisticated enough to understand what we're dealing with. And we work it out over the course of our lifetime. just wanted to to pull that out that there was something happening early around

emotional security and having to control self-expression and the impulse to self-expression, but having that be channeled into very practical things.

Kirsten (17:22)

there was something that happened when I was two though that

Laurel Kassor (17:25)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (17:26)

was very significant. Is that something that we're gonna get to or could it possibly

so there was

an incident my parents decided to be very Catholic. and there was this incident where we were leaving the church and I apparently kicked a bunch of cues 'cause I was a toddler and I was having a tantrum. and I got like this very severe punishment when I got home that made me leave my body and basically stop expressing myself until my twin flame showed me metal in twenty twenty three.

Laurel Kassor (17:59)

Hmm interesting. I think that really connects to the Pluto Ceres energy, the Ceres Pluto in Sagittarius.

Your generation's wound is belief and interpretation

Kirsten (18:08)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (18:10)

and propaganda, if I may even extend it out to their. a lot of people have religious trauma wounding. I'm not saying it's limited to one generation.

But y'all really got it in an interesting way, in a different way too, because it also came through with people being able to broadcast ideas via the internet But yes, religion would definitely make sense as one of the early formative pieces

And so it's funny you know, using this method, there isn't anything marked on the chart for two years old, which usually to me says, there's something else that e goes deeper into that theme later into the life.

what you just described is almost like a fractal off of some of the energy rather than the source of it itself I'm sure we'll circle back to the sun-moon stuff But the next big one that I really want to look at.

it's Mercury in Virgo that falls at the three-ish tiny bit after three years old point that isn't a square to your Pluto Ceres in Sagittarius, and that could be.

part of what was being represented there.

Is there anything you can tell us about that experience?

Kirsten (19:23)

other than the fact that it like masked my expression for a really long time.

it's l a little bit TMI, but it it gave me a pain kink because I got nurturing for a week after because of what happened to me. And then I craved that until I healed it.

The last few years. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (19:43)

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing

that. That it makes a lot of sense to Pluto being there completely. And let's remember: this is a Pluto-Ceres conjunction in the fifth house. So there is something very much about not just expression, but there being

A connection between pain and pleasure as well. the fifth house is a hobby house, it's a house of joy, it's a house of fun, it's a house of play, And though planets that land in that house, their themes come and join in to whatever we create play around, right? And so I think that that energy can be extended easily, especially with Pluto in there, to sexuality

Pluto in Sagittarius, so sexual exploration, and also I'm wondering if there were words involved because this is Mercury, so this would have been through Mercury's lens,

Kirsten (20:39)

very much a part of my operating system. I obsessively thought about my fantasies for the rest of my life until healing it. it was constantly a problem.

Laurel Kassor (20:47)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So this is actually a perfect way to connect us into this Pluto Ceres aspect. So we're going to pop ahead a little tiny bit into it.

So, one of the things that I'm also noticing about this time period here is that your Mercury is in Virgo in the second house. It is making this waning square. So it has also a pillar 10 undertone to it, which I want to invite to the conversation. Like, people do associate Saturn with punishment.

and rules and restrictions and being grounded, you know, and being forbidden to do things, right? So I do think that there might be an element of

The structure forming, You said that you might operated in this way afterward, these grooves being deepened, right? And the mind operating in a certain way is so very Mercury involved. But this is again Mercury in the second house, and it's connecting to Ceres, specifically a Ceres Pluto conjunction. So that means pillar two was brought into this equation, too, which has to do with physicality and touch. And you mentioned that this experience sent you out of your body.

Which is almost this conflicting, confusing thing because and because on one hand you disconnected and denied the body, the mind and the body, there was a there was a halt, So that brings that pillar 10, like uh-uh, no.

Denied energy between the mind, Mercury and the body, Ceres, or the body regulation, Ceres. to an extreme, because Pluto is involved too. So it veered extreme and crisis-like, because then it also sent you into learning that when we get really hurt physically.

Then people soothe us. Then we're nurtured. Then we're cared for.

Kirsten (22:34)

important part there. that was the most attention I got in my entire childhood and the most physical touch I got in my entire childhood. So my brain was literally like, if I get punished, then I will be loved. So that was

up thing that got wired in that event that

I carried for a very long time.

Laurel Kassor (22:53)

Ugh. We're gonna talk about that healing in just a second. I'm so sorry that that happened. It's not okay.

it did set up this interesting template for your brain to think about the the transformative power of touch and of physicality in a really, really important way that I think is a really big part of your energetic blueprint.

kind of overall and plays into 100% this idea of you going to school for what you want to be going to school for, right? Because this is also when Mercury and Virgo would have been activated too. This is when that Ceres energy would have gotten activated. Pluto obviously is let's fucking obsess and get really deep about something. Even at that child age, from a very early age checking out books in the library about massage therapy. this is Mercury. This is an early age, even if you weren't reading yet the fascination, the

interest which is another mercurial thing things that we are interested in things that stimulate our mind hello like how the body works

which is that closing square, understanding and knowing how the body works. if we're gonna pull off incorporating

This into how we meet our other needs, then we're gonna need to know how to do it the the right finger quotes way And even if you were too young to know that's part of the grooves that were being set then, I think that it makes sense in the scope that that Pluto-Ceres conjunction is in the fifth house. So it's like, all if we're gonna put on the show.

We better make sure that we are are a master of our craft about it. So we don't maybe get too hurt.

Kirsten (24:30)

yeah, I apply that to everything. I make sure everyone else is well resourced. If I was sending someone on a flight, I give them all the things and make sure they know what's happening. Yeah,

it's very there's the checklists and all that. and then

Laurel Kassor (24:45)

It's almost worst case

scenario, prepare preparing for worst case scenarios and provisioning people for them. Is that

Kirsten (24:48)

Yeah. yeah.

Laurel Kassor (24:51)

is that kind of it?

Kirsten (24:53)

Yes, yes. And for myself, I used to make complex plans for

everything we call it course of action I'll have ten KOAs because I need a fallback plan because that's how my brain works. I've had several people teachers on report cards when I was in high school and then also I have a command

commendation that also uses the word conscientious. So that's a big word for me. for the Mercury.

Laurel Kassor (25:20)

It makes a lot

of sense this is the same thing that happened with that other aspect we pulled out with your Sun, we're gonna learn how to do something with this.

Because it made that try to Saturn and it made the sextile to your Chiron as well. So it was like, okay, that sucked. We're gonna fucking deal. We're gonna become better at this thing and more efficient at this thing. Okay, okay. So we can handle that other thing that hurts in some way or that keeps us rigid in some way. And then it seems a little bit later here around this age marker, too, again, or very early.

This is Mercury making a exact waxing sextile to your Mars. It is making an exact waxing quincunx to your Saturn. It is making a waning quincunx to your Uranus.

a waning trine to your Jupiter, and the square to the Pluto-Ceres conjunction in the fifth house. So this experience 100% lit up several various aspects of your chart, which you just described in plans of action. There's our Mars.

there's there's the Saturn too. Like you did this at work. It was part of your job to come up with the the plans of literal action. And there's your Saturn. I know we haven't voiced it much about it yet, but that your Saturn is at seven Aries, your Mars is at seven Cancer. There's a square there. Also has to do with planning for protection

It's a similar echoing theme to some of these other ones. That's obviously with the military too, by the way. Right? Mars is a military planet. Your MC is in Aries. Saturn has to do with being in charge and managing things and

being the boss and also work and career and rules and discipline

And so this traumatic event where you have this outer body experience.

connected into various aspects of your psyche and was like, we gotta prepare for fucking anything, dude, because apparently your body isn't even a promise. Apparently you can't even stay in that sometimes. I can imagine at, you know, two, three years old, what the fuck? and this also would connect again, even though it's not directly

In aspect to your moon, it echoes some of these things that your moon in Taurus is saying, which is fucking, we gotta get grounded if we wanna feel safe. We gotta stay grounded. We gotta get in that body if we wanna feel safe. We have to anchor to something consistent if we want to feel safe, something we can count on if we want to feel safe.

Kirsten (27:54)

Yes. yeah,

so also from that event with my parents, I got disconnected from most of my emotions as well. So it was like I was just floating out here. Until I had

Laurel Kassor (28:06)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (28:08)

a specific therapist bring me back into my body. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (28:12)

Mm-hmm.

there are a couple of different factors that your Mercury is undergoing at this time and setting templates for at this time. And one of them is the quincunx to Uranus. Okay, that's one. And then there is that, I said earlier, the waning sextile to Mars.

Brings in two factors of pillar 11 and detachment and dissociation, right?

The moon, you mentioned emotions. Your Mars is in cancer, right? So it's pulling in emotional stuff. So even just that Mercury to Mars connection is pulling in something about initiating emotional processes, saying disconnect. Because even the sextile can still be experienced in a finger quotes subjectively negative way.

Kirsten (28:54)

Hmm.

Laurel Kassor (28:55)

Right, but it was still is for protection.

And then there's the floating in the 12th house, and then the disconnection from Uranus directly, it's a waning quincunx that Mercury is into Uranus. So if that has a Plutonic undertone to it, while in aspect to Pluto, there's a lot going on then that actually I think, you know.

One of the maybe the potentially we could say more formative of the formative moments there, because it does activate across so many different dimensions of the chart in really significant ways. And I can already see how this would attract you to massage therapy, to therapy, to healing work.

to helping other people get back into their bodies to understanding the complex interconnectivity of how s how systems operate and work because in that moment a system that should have been a whole became parts essentially is what I'm hearing.

Kirsten (29:55)

Yep, there was

lots of parts work done.

Laurel Kassor (29:58)

super formative moment. A lot's gonna trace back to it. the next big one, your Chiron North Node connection. And that happens at looks like about eight years old. This could have to do with several things.

So that Chiron activation around eight years old, it's in the third house, it's in Libra. So this could have to do with siblings, this could have to do with classmates, this could have to do with relationships, this could have to do with feelings of fairness.

it would have not only activated Chiron as I need to develop a skill around fairness develop or learn more about how to relate information or to other people. But it it's opposite your Saturn

It's in the ninth house. This tends to have to do with authority. So it's giving me kind of this energy around maybe there was a church authority. This could have to do with church, Sunday school, you classmates, peers. but yeah, is there anything coming to mind? This also is when

your Mars is activated again too. In Cancer in the 12th,

Kirsten (31:02)

church was a big thing for me.

I fully embraced the Catholic thing. I started actively deconstructing that in 2024. I was still going to church by myself when I moved out. my family stopped being Catholic before I did. Including

Laurel Kassor (31:20)

That's interesting.

Kirsten (31:21)

my parents. It was very odd. It

was like, everybody's moving on now. Okay, well this was a really big deal before.

I was homeschooled until grade ten. My mom was getting us to do Catholic curriculum. There wasn't a Canadian Catholic curriculum so I actually did American curriculum as a child. I learned American history. Yeah. And yeah so that was

Laurel Kassor (31:46)

indoctrinate who? What? Sorry, but sorry.

Kirsten (31:51)

That was the thing. there was a time when we were praying the rosary every day. would have been within that period. Yeah, my parents were just extremely Catholic, to the point of self righteousness and I

from like the age of six was already memorizing long prayers and stuff and very much like memorizing religious texts was a really big source of pride for me.

Laurel Kassor (32:17)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (32:18)

which continued on into early teen age. and then when I finally did go to school in grade ten, eleven, twelve,

It was a Catholic school, so I had mandatory religion classes, which was very annoying to me because mercury in virgo had a whole agenda for what it wanted to learn and that was three classes in my in my schedule that they added law and psychology suddenly in my last year and I was like, no, why would you do that?

always been a nerd. There was a plan, they ruined the plan.

Laurel Kassor (32:51)

That's Saturn in the ninth house.

I'm gonna become the master of my own expansion. Is also a little bit of that energy too.

I bring it up and I think it's interesting that you were memorizing you were saying that you were already memorizing the Bible and stuff by then because this is when there is a connection to your Sun. It's in the third house, so it's I could imagine that this is a little bit of performing the passages.

To relate. It's so heavily on like relating. I want to relate to something. I want the companionship. It is Libra energy. You know, it's the north node got activated. Chiron got activated. So it says, like, I gotta get better at relating and attracting and

polarity, I think, a little bit too. So this could have been maybe a revelation around like, not everyone believes this. You know, not everyone thinks this way.

Kirsten (33:45)

Yes.

I see Libra as the the institution has established this is what we must do in order to create beauty. It's the thing that that maintains the balance. That's why it's also

the judge, right? Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (33:59)

Yeah,

yeah. can you tell me more about any moments that stand out

Kirsten (34:05)

I had a really hard time conceptualizing Libra Energy. That's the last one I was able to wrap my hand around. that's more within the past year it really clicked for me. but

Yeah, I I keep seeing my grandmother, she is extremely Catholic. She's also an Aries. She's like, This is how it is and we're all gonna do it And if you don't do it this way, she's very passive aggressive as well like you're gonna go to hell kinda thing.

Laurel Kassor (34:29)

It's Chiron

Kirsten (34:29)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (34:30)

and Libra moving towards the north node in the third house, saying, like, I'm learning something. It's square Jupiter. It's square Mars and Cancer, passive aggressive, hello. Jupiter's grandparents, hello. It's also religion, hello. It's opposite Saturn. She's in charge. These are the rules. You're going to hell, otherwise, like punishment.

Kirsten (34:48)

Yeah, there's actually there is one specific thing that's coming to me, which might have been during that period, but it wasn't about the religion specifically. It was I remember she was accusing me of lying and she was completely convinced that I lied. This also seems very Libra. The honesty and all that and the rules

my brain struggles with lying. so for me being accused of lying

is the biggest insult possible so it might have been that

I definitely repressed that. I just remember the feeling in my stomach. I I always remember the feeling. It's very the taurus I don't remember what happened, I remember how I felt. I mean that's also a human thing, but it might be accentuated for me.

Laurel Kassor (35:30)

that's exactly both series of moments here. because it it is Chiron in the North Node in the third house. So this has something to do about the messages being communicated, right? This has something to do with fixing, figuring out how to communicate in a way that's going to be relatable.

Palatable, accommodating, that's gonna land gracefully, peacefully, to avoid conflict in some way, shape, or form, right? Like, because we don't want to argue about like, like, why would I lie? Right. So I think that that's part of it. But it's also

Kirsten (36:04)

yeah.

Laurel Kassor (36:05)

this is square Mars and Cancer in the 12th house. So there is this,

aggressiveness

around this energy and it is a waning square again. It is also about these are the rules, being punished passive aggressively or very maybe directly aggressively, it gives me this idea that of withholding care, actively withholding care, or the care being used as a weapon in some way to guilt or to shame. deception is also twelfth house energy or pillar twelve energy to me.

Pisces, Neptune, the 12th house, the waning semi-sextile, all carry that quality here.

Mercury is actually in a waning semi-sextile.

this energy is squaring Jupiter. So there we go with the religious figure, also, aka a grandparent, which is a Jupiterian Pillar 9 energy. because she's in charge and she's the adult that I think you were lying.

even if you weren't, I think you were. this is an opening square. pillar four. Pillar Four is cancer, Hello, there's Mars over there.

Your Mars and your Jupiter are in an opposition. all of these things are connected into each other. So this energy, basically lights up everything that Mercury didn't touch, gets lit up here and reconnected back into itself. this is also connected to your north node.

We're gonna put in put this

Kirsten (37:27)

Move that.

Laurel Kassor (37:28)

information together in such a way that it's going to enhance the

experience for everybody involved. We're gonna balance out everyone.

so everyone can feel

respected, cared for, listened to. There's a lot of different elements going on in this energy.

Kirsten (37:47)

I'm just having like some wheels turning in my brain

Laurel Kassor (37:50)

that would have been

a really important moment learning that authority maybe isn't always right, but we have to listen to them anyway How is that landing for you?

Kirsten (37:59)

Yeah, I always had a problem with authority, but also pretended I didn't because I wanted everybody to get along. And I felt I was the stable I was trying to be the stable thing, because in the what's happening with everybody. and

also I remember probably around that time telling my siblings I didn't have a way to cope. me telling them what mom and dad are doing is is not okay with the fighting and the conflict and everything. But what we can do is make sure that we don't do that when we're older. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (38:33)

Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. This is the Chiron moment where it's talking to Saturn. So it's like, let's plan for the future. Let's make some adjustments for the future. And your Mercury is in Virgo, so it answers to Chiron in Libra, who is looking to make peace. It's like, what are solutions to peace? Is what I'm after. I'm I'm after some

Peaceful problem solving. That's what I would love. this is in the third house. it's all pillar

three mixing in with a little bit of this pillar six but

It's hitting a lot energy that requires there to be some containment of feeling, that's some containment of action, of impulse, you know, this is the next big, big, big plot point after the body.

Dissociation experience. Right? we have a lot of moving parts to account for. And so it's almost echoing some of those other things that got activated before, Before I thought it was just the mind of the body, but

Damn, it turns out there's this other stuff too. Because at this point, there's also spirit now involved, God's now involved, beliefs now involved, right? it's bringing in this complexity. when you were talking about it earlier in the episode, and you used the word that you love complex systems. Ooh, they're juicy, juicy, juicy.

Kirsten (39:53)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (39:53)

Hello,

Chiron opposite Saturn. I think I bit my tongue on saying it because I was like, we're gonna get there. But like

Kirsten (39:58)

Ha ha ha.

Laurel Kassor (39:59)

now I want to say it because like, hello, complex systems. Hello, com making complex systems palatable, relatable, pretty,

Kirsten (40:05)

That's lot of

my brand online on threads right now. Explaining the spiritual things.

Laurel Kassor (40:11)

it's part of this energy where we had to learn how to keep the peace amongst conflicting energies who don't always believe you.

I think that's really interesting because this flow forward as you had just said. that's part of your online messaging now. Hello, third house.

That's our that's the house of pillar three. It's our message. Literally. And it's opposite Saturn. So the business part, your Saturn's at the ninth house. I know it won't you won't always be in school, but we literally have caught you at a time where you are in school learning the the the rules of the systems.

That you're adapting into your own practices now. And these are complex systems again where you're having to relate these different moving parts to each other. And so what I'm what I'm ultimately kind of circling back to here is that this formative moment introduced the intersection of like, hmm, how do we balance highly complex

and multifaceted systems in ways that are structurally sound and safe and feel safe somehow,

Kirsten (41:18)

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And

feel that this North Node and Chiron thing also

I have this need to be the middle. And that's also something that I I very much process the

the different zodiacal energies is physics and sensation. So for me, Libra is where is the middle? I must

Laurel Kassor (41:36)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (41:37)

find the middle. that's Libra too.

Laurel Kassor (41:39)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (41:40)

'cause in the middle there's no conflict because the two are together.

So yeah, that's been something that I've been trying to rewire for myself to not be things are perfect and beautiful only if I don't exist.

Laurel Kassor (41:53)

Mm.

Kirsten (41:54)

Yes. So being I can exist and have beauty and be a thing and have a stance. and people will still like me and I won't be ruining everything.

Laurel Kassor (42:03)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kirsten (42:04)

Yeah, which conflicts

with the Leo. Even though there's sextiling it's a conflict with the Leo. and being expressive. Because I am still struggling to my friend just asked me what's your aesthetic? I don't have one yet. I

Laurel Kassor (42:17)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (42:17)

don't have one yet because if I have one then I'm a thing. And I wanna be in the middle. Which makes me

Laurel Kassor (42:22)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (42:23)

not a thing.

Laurel Kassor (42:23)

So I'm gonna challenge that just a little tiny bit because in Soul ARC Astrology yes, the Libra energy does have to do with attraction, but I wouldn't necessarily name it as togetherness, although I can see where that vantage point is for sure.

Thinking about it from a geometrical standpoint, It is opposition. It is together in the sense that it is two ends of one whole spectrum, you know? And not together like in the middle, but together like at the reflective point where all the middle happens.

to me the Chiron conjunct that North Node in Libra in that Sextile to the Sun is kind of saying

That the ticket to innovating your own self-expression and bringing it alive, which is that first house, that way of living and navigating the world, can partly come through fixing the polarization problems, aka needing to be liked by everyone, That we can fix this idea that we're not gonna be liked.

Or we're not gonna be appreciated or met, matched, companioned, partnered with.

until we understand what our identity can

elevate into because to me this sextile it's a waning sextile so it has that innovation awaken wake up wake up wake up type of undertone to it and chiron's let's fix this problem we have with the mirror right we gotta fix this mirroring thing we got going on it's not saying we need to relate more to everybody else especially not with that Leo Sun and that

Fifth house we're about to talk about here in a second, because you keep talking about it while we're talking about other aspects, which is I love because it just illustrates that the chart is a whole. The chart is a whole that you cannot talk about one piece without talking about other pieces too.

It's a self-organizing system. part of what is coming through here is that this lesson that was learned was like, holy shit, we gotta really figure out how to please everybody if we're gonna make it through. We have to figure out how to do this careful dance with all these complex parts to make sure we're weaving gracefully and seamlessly through conflict in a balanced way.

And we do that by learning all the parts and all the rules and all the the language and all the this and the that, right? And make that practical and make that functional. I don't know who I am. This energy is saying.

Okay, well let's figure out polarization. Let's figure out how to be polarizing and be safe and grounded enough in ourselves, in our expression, in making our own choices and performing and showing up and having fucking fun and allowing ourselves to go through that, which we're gonna about to jump to here in a second, death and rebirth process.

Kirsten (45:31)

Yeah, it was really funny when you said at the beginning that you wanted to push back and then you started started explaining, and then my brain was like, Well what she's saying is falling within what I also consider to be Libra, so I must have communicated that wrong and what did I say that was wrong? And then I was like, this is literally the thing.

Laurel Kassor (45:48)

The thing, it's the thing, you were doing the thing. You were fucking doing

the fucking thing, dude!

Kirsten (45:53)

And then I was like, okay, just sh shush the brain.

Laurel Kassor (45:59)

Cosmically

called out. Cosmically called out. Wow.

Kirsten (46:04)

Like you're

doing it again, Kirsten. Stop it. You didn't say it wrong, it's fine.

Laurel Kassor (46:11)

But the but that's great

that you caught it. That's amazing because that is the fucking waning sextile happening live, right before your very eyes. It's a disruptive aspect. When you become aware of the thing, you disrupt

Kirsten (46:25)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Laurel Kassor (46:28)

it, right? And you did it live in your fucking head,

Kirsten (46:30)

Yeah, honestly, learning

my chart has been the most helpful self discovery tool that exists. a lot of people are like, I this tool or that tool. I'm like, that's great, but nothing will have the complexity and accuracy of your birth chart. Nothing else.

Laurel Kassor (46:45)

A hundred percent. You just so perfectly demonstrated how astrology happens through

Kirsten (46:50)

It does.

Laurel Kassor (46:51)

the processes. Very fucking meta. I want to scoot us into this big fucking puppy here. we've been dancing around your Pluto Ceres conjunction in

Sagittarius. We've mentioned it a few times. It's already come up a little bit, but it is.

To me, one of the loudest aspects in your chart, it happens

Kirsten (47:11)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (47:12)

around, 16, 17 years old. Looks like about the time frame And remember, this is going to be connected to the out-of-body experience you had when you were two or three. And

What's interesting is that this energy is the other side of that lens.

Here at 16 or 17-ish, we're seeing another facet of it from another planet's angle. In this case, this really would have spanned probably a couple of years. This would have a lot to do with belief, religion, self-expression. it's possible with Pluto here too, there was some kind of abuse or manipulation.

Kirsten (47:53)

I thought of what

Laurel Kassor (47:53)

Alrighty.

Kirsten (47:53)

it was. I

feel this is me forcing myself to do drama class

Laurel Kassor (48:00)

Okay.

Kirsten (48:01)

because I was extremely awkward and shy

after all of the home schooling and

I didn't talk about this, but my mom implied that the chaos in our our home and I was the eldest of six kids, the chaos in our home and my parents fighting and all of that was my fault because she got pregnant with me. And she didn't get to do her career

So I took that on as my fault. Sorry I should have mentioned that earlier. That's probably relevant.

Laurel Kassor (48:23)

No, don't be sorry, Like, what comes up comes up.

Kirsten (48:26)

Sorry, the Libra is so triggered right now.

Laurel Kassor (48:31)

this is such a safe space. Are you okay? You're not, you're not doing anything wrong. You're not doing anything wrong. This is part of the process. This is a hundred percent part of the process.

Kirsten (48:33)

I'm okay. It's I'm doing it wrong. Okay, okay. Jupiter just moved into

Leo. I'm like extra I can see myself more.

Laurel Kassor (48:48)

yeah, visibility. Am I right?

what you just described about your mother, your moon in Taurus in the tenth.

Squaring the sun. I didn't get to be who I wanted to be. I had to be here and provide for you children. Hello. Hello. Like it's very there, you know. It's our parents are echoed in our charts. The people in our life

Kirsten (49:04)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (49:09)

are echoed in our charts. Our charts are mirrors for our reality. Part of this disruptive quality, and especially since you do have this combo, pillar five creation.

identity energy which is your sun and your Leo meeting with Libra which is pillar seven polarity meeting

Kirsten (49:27)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (49:28)

with this waning sextile which is pillar 11 awakening it's literally saying hello we gotta break this mirror

We gotta crash this old fucking mirror. This old way of seeing ourselves as someone whose job, there's our Saturn, it is to please people.

And anticipate everyone else's needs and take act and there's your Mars in in cancer over there and take the actions there. And I also want it wasn't lost on me either earlier, when you're describing like your part of the goal being like peacekeeping, that you went into the military, which is so interesting because it is this Mars ruled

Aries MC that you have, but also connecting in with another fractal of this, like, well, how are we gonna peace keep the peace? Well, I guess we're gonna do it by supporting arms, which is really interesting. Because there's Mars and Cancer support cancer, arms, Mars.

But instead of going out into the field and you were going into it for with medical reasons. I know we haven't been like as heavy into the medical but this is also part of Chiron's domain.

Kirsten (50:44)

We'll get to the sixth house in a minute.

Laurel Kassor (50:45)

Yeah, That's

also part of the Mercury in Virgo. It's part of the parts thing. And the make it work, designers make it work, is also part of how I feel this energy comes through. It's you got all these moving parts, you gotta combine them and tweak them, adjust them, and make them come together smoothly and efficiently. And then what was the work that you were doing in the military?

again please remind us

Kirsten (51:09)

HR.

Laurel Kassor (51:10)

behind the scenes work supporting the many multiple moving parts.

this moving parts thing, it has been in multiple parts of your life, you were going into the military to begin with was the medical, but it became other behind-the-scenes support work, but also a lot of planning, but still this like essence of many multiple parts.

being present and accounted for in a way to make them operate smoothly and efficiently and gracefully together.

Kirsten (51:39)

sorry, there was one other thing from childhood that was really important that I totally forgot about.

I was literally getting bullied by my parents for being a Leo. So the really weird thing is they were super Catholic but they cared about the astrology. Just the sun signs. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (51:53)

Really? When was that?

Kirsten (51:55)

They were always into the sun signs. So they would be like,

you're a Leo, you're too loud, you just want all the attention and I actually wasn't living out my Leo at all. and it turns out my mom's a Leo rising, so it was a lot of her

Saying that, it's just like uncanny for me to think about now, but they did a lot of like they would just go my dad would go on rants about how awful I was and just be talking calling me all sorts of things. I didn't have to say anything. It would just go on this rant. And my mom would join in and they were just talking about how awful I was and so I really internalized and nobody wants me here.

But I'm trapped here. my wound is being trapped in an area with people who don't want me or don't me. Yeah, so finding aligned people in my life has been a really nice thing 'cause like, you actually enjoy my company. that's different.

Laurel Kassor (52:46)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's I think a lot on the Pluto conjunct series in the fifth house. Square Mercury in Virgo in the seventh being criticized constantly, verbally abused. Pluto's square

Mercury, when Pillar Eight and Pillar get together. it can be mental abuse, verbal abuse, right?

with the Ceres, I think that that brings in a lot of the tangible body, being physically there. You're talking about feeling trapped to me. That's a very Cerian thing. It's feeling trapped in the earthly dimension, feeling you can't escape. And I think

Kirsten (53:23)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (53:24)

that too, when we remind ourselves that part of this energy and how this formulated early was a mind-body disconnect,

what's coming through is that you were demonstrated that, like, yeah, these things are parts that.

you're stuck with you can't take them apart. you can see these parts, but they exist in this whole and you need to be in this whole here. especially when you bring in the extremity of the wound, you mentioned the word wound, which is a Pluto word, which is an eight pillar eight word, the alchemy energy. the waning quincunx This to me has so much to do

With that feeling of being trapped, but also knowing that things are parts and they can be removed and separated and moved around in some way, but they can't go far. And that is part of that Sagittarius energy, That's coming in. we can't express freely, we can't express and roam. These different parts still are stuck.

in this thing. we're still weighted

down in some way, you know?

That is tough stuff, my friend. You mentioned healing earlier. obviously you've done a lot of work around this energy. And I can imagine a lot of that work has been very physical in nature. very somatically based. some of the things that are channeling through is

rebirthing a healthy connection between information and both expression and validation, And physicalizing it, actualizing it, tangibilizing it.

Kirsten (54:51)

Yeah. I'm curious which which age would that be? Which house does that fall under then? I started dating him when I was

18 just before I turned 18.

Laurel Kassor (55:00)

It's the fifth house.

Kirsten (55:02)

That makes sense. Okay.

so I started dating him in high school. he was into me, I was not into him, and then it was two months before I was about to graduate and I hadn't kissed anybody yet and my brain was like, This is not right and then I kissed him 'cause we started hanging out as friends.

I had a fallout with my other friend that I had gotten really close with because we had a conflict. We had a a conflict around debating about homosexuality because I was taught to be anti and which is now very sad. So she stopped

acknowledging my existence the day after that. and then I started hanging out with that guy more often and then started dating him. I told him I would only date him until I graduated, so it was a two month thing. so his friends were calling me contract girl. but I

had that huge need for connection. So once we once we became intimate, which I actually kind of followed my mom's rules, which was no dating anybody until after you graduate. then yeah, I ended up with him for eight and a half years. And had three children

Laurel Kassor (56:03)

Wow.

Kirsten (56:03)

with him accidentally.

my entire relationship history happened while Neptune was in my eighth house.

It turned out that he was with someone else for the first three years of our relationship as well. Had a child with her first. And then when she broke up with him, that's when I have now traced it back, 'cause I've since met her, to when he started using drugs. And he was also selling them, it turns out. I actually had no idea.

He was very good at pretending. He was also a Leo Sun with Gemini Moon.

Yes, very interesting, right? we could nerd out about stuff together.

like it it had the potential to be a beautiful relationship and we didn't have any conflict when he wasn't in an altered state, but by the end there, twenty twenty actually is when he started creating this story that there are people trying to kill us. So

before that he was already getting money out of me. I was funding his business that I was giving all these details about. He basically by the by twenty twenty two, I was in a complete alternate reality. I'd been isolated from everybody because I thought I was protecting them.

I was I was alone. I was pregnant

I had the second child. there was a lot of psychological abuse during that that time.

told lots of stories. I just kept giving him money. I was just in a state of confusion and fear and aloneness and my resources being drained out of me. And I was still trying to do my side hustle things. drop shipping and trading crypto I self published the children's book.

I produced it in partnership with a gal in Ukraine who did my illustration.

but when I finally told my mom what was happening in twenty twenty three,

Like, you need to call the police. And then I haven't seen him since basically. minus the court stuff.

Yeah, that was it was so strange coming out of that because it was it was a bad dream. Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (57:56)

Yeah.

Kirsten (57:57)

Because he did some really messed up things to me while he was in altered states. He spent a whole year where he was a different personality. the most embarrassing part is when I now say out loud the stuff that he was telling me that was real to me at the time. It sounds ridiculous,

Maybe it's part of just the way my brain works, but I once I've decided I trust you, I will just believe anything you say. Or at least I I was that back then.

Laurel Kassor (58:21)

That reminds me of I'm sorry to cut in, but it echoes the early religious upbringing.

Kirsten (58:28)

That's the first thing my therapist told me.

He was like, Your your religious upbringing groomed you to be able

to be in this thing. Yeah, yeah. He was like, You were the frog in the water.

Laurel Kassor (58:40)

It's an echo of that pattern. I was hearing

part of the grandma come through there too. doesn't matter what I think, because apparently this is what we're supposed to believe, or this is what we're supposed to do,

Kirsten (58:49)

Yeah, so it was so weird because

he got to know my brain, so his company was funding my favorite charity and He he really targeted me and what I care about, which is diabolical now, thinking back I had to go through a lot of grieving, obviously, because he was constantly telling me every day, he would be declaring

declaring his love all the time and that's all I wanted. All I wanted was to be loved and change the world. So he literally took those and was feeding off me for that long.

Yeah, really devastating. so yeah, I got a therapist within a week, I think, of the police incident once once he was no longer talking in my head and all of reality started breaking down.

Laurel Kassor (59:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. there's so many different factors that you're naming obviously we're you're condensing an eight-year-long relationship into like a into like an eight minute story.

Kirsten (59:41)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (59:44)

obviously we started this by talking about the Pluto-Ceres conjunction and around like, you know

S si 16, 17, 18, ish Where there is self-expression and friends getting tied in and dating getting tied in and expanding your worldview And that is also when Venus gets activated actually

the first time, finger quotes, first time she gets aspected, and it's by Pluto, right? And it is a waning quincunx So it's Venus, a relational planet, making a pillar eight alchemical aspect to a pillar eight alchemical planet from the 11th house of vision.

perspective out there in the world. this also pulls in the Mars in Cancer in the 12th house, which pulls in Pillar 12. We were hearing a lot of Neptune things. I don't think that Neptune is alone

Kirsten (1:00:40)

Yes.

Laurel Kassor (1:00:40)

the culprit here. I think that the placement of Mars being like, yeah, let's pursue this shelter and yeah.

Kirsten (1:00:48)

yeah, no, it was the transiting it was the transiting

Neptune

Laurel Kassor (1:00:51)

Yes, I'd I'd say that the transit the transiting Neptune is not the only culprit here.

Kirsten (1:00:55)

Mm-hmm,

Laurel Kassor (1:00:56)

Mars getting activated over the course of the especially the early parts of this relationship created this early template for you in in the relationship where there was this and you said, looking back, I cannot believe.

what happened there and what I bought into. But it was like part of this was Mars in cancer, like in the fog of like, but this is what you've always wanted.

Kirsten (1:01:21)

the attachment

to the reality.

Laurel Kassor (1:01:23)

having a reciprocal fantasy where there was a partnership who you, like you said, kept up with you that you got to talk to about things. Like there's the Venus coming in too, but there's the Neptunian quality. Yes, Neptune transit is a part of the

experiential factors of it. I'm not saying it's not them saying that there was a pillar twelve quality already kind of baked in to the actions that we move forward in taking,

Kirsten (1:01:50)

was also a twelfth house Sun on top of that. Yeah. Yep.

Laurel Kassor (1:01:53)

Mm mm, because you're naming so many 12th house themes. See, was there substances?

There was obviously deception.

Kirsten (1:02:00)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (1:02:01)

A lot of deception there. it's these were actions that he was taking. He was pushing drugs. He was using them. He was active lying, Which brings back and echoes back this lying thing from earlier.

In your life, this echoing story about like, what do you what do you mean I'm lying? Like, lying's bad, I would never. And then also from another fractal lens, being like, my god, you're lying to me, bitch. What? so it's bringing back this integrity in words and in actions and kind of energy around it there. And then, of course, here's more Neptune. It's not just Mars, Venus, who got activated.

is also activating Neptune in your chart as well by an opening quincunx So it is about how do we figure out how to love inside of

this ether inside of this mist, inside of this hazy, foggyness, too. So there was a lot and that spans all the way up until the Neptune age would have been, it looks like about 25, 26,

Kirsten (1:03:08)

Well I'm currently twenty nine, so twenty six would have been three years ago when I left him

Laurel Kassor (1:03:14)

Okay, so exactly then. Yeah? Holy shit. Damn.

Kirsten (1:03:17)

yeah would have been twenty

five. 'Cause I didn't turn twenty six yet. Yep. Correct.

Laurel Kassor (1:03:20)

Yeah. It's right

at that marker. that is the Neptune marker. So this thing that opened up around 16/17 that where some of the Pluto stuff happened, because it doesn't necessarily mean it was right with him. that could have been the moment where things went sour with your friend because of some beliefs.

Friends in the fifth house, beliefs that have been manipulated or abused in some way, corrupted in some way, creating a destruction aspect with a relationship in the eleventh house

it's interesting because you're now at Neptune

And so while the Neptune stuff came to fruition and the veil lifted and we saw like, what do we we have to figure out what what the fuck reality what do we do with this our mind and how we perceived all this stuff, you know, and the perception needs to change significantly.

There's that Venus in the 11th house, right?

you went through the Uranus part, which was probably the separating. And it was probably the picking ourselves up again afterward, and the new perspectives and the new awarenesses that came with that truly a veil lifting off a reality,

a sextile between Ceres Pluto and Uranus in the chart. So that is also probably likely when

some of the the aha, Eureka's interest in astrology and therapy and healing in progressive ways and interdisciplinary connections probably came in. So can you tell us a little bit about what the period of time was after the finding out?

Kirsten (1:05:00)

I jumped into that right away. I was like, my reality's broken. we need to go get this fixed, ASAP. I started the therapy. I started with the first therapist, through the military. He was really lovely. So

one. a anyway. I've had over a hundred therapy sessions, therapy and or coaching. I was with him

until let's see, end of July twenty twenty three is when I

met my twin flame guy. And

Laurel Kassor (1:05:25)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (1:05:25)

that's

interestingly coincided with a solar return where I have a lot of things in the eight pass.

Laurel Kassor (1:05:32)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (1:05:34)

I had massive ego death. that whole situation still makes zero logical sense.

I still want only him. I've tried to move on over and over and over. but basically I was with this guy for one month. I met him in person four times.

I had never seen a tarot reader before but I had a few months prior, because my sister was dating a guy who read tarot and he had told me I'm gonna meet someone at a celebration and then I met this guy and he said that he had seen a psychic about same month I did and she said that he was gonna meet someone in August and we were gonna fall in love in September and that

what happened except we weren't even together anymore in September.

he would send me songs and I would send him song

Anyway.

He he showed me metal. So

had not successfully gotten my emotions back until he showed me metal and because and that took me all the way back to that two-year-old thing where I was taught that I cannot express my anger and I was listening to a spirit box song that he sent me and I started crying and I felt this huge amount of rage coming out through my body and there was so much energy so much block

energy also from all those years of abuse where I wasn't even reacting to the things that were happening to me crazy stuff. trigger warning, one of the things was he did (ex husband) shot his gun against the back of my head. You would think I'd have

Laurel Kassor (1:06:55)

my god.

Kirsten (1:06:56)

some sort of reaction to that, right?

Laurel Kassor (1:06:59)

Yeah.

Kirsten (1:07:00)

I just went about my day as if nothing happened.

It was

One of many incidents.

Laurel Kassor (1:07:05)

it does feel important to note that your Mars Saturn Square, which is also part of your

Mercury moment here where there is a waxing quincunx with Mercury to your Saturn and a waxing sextile with Mercury to your Mars. they're all they're all at seven degrees, so they're all exactly touching. your Jupiter is part of this too at nine degrees Capricorn, right? So

Kirsten (1:07:31)

Mm.

Laurel Kassor (1:07:32)

we've got a T square plus Mercury going on.

Plus Ceres at three degrees. there's a lot that's happening here, but specifically these seven degree planets there is a blockage quality to them. You've already laid out for us the

The lived experiential situations and how that presented, It's Mars square Saturn and Mars in the 12th house, as you had pointed out. So there is this the suppression of anger, the suppression of life force energy. We also heard this in part of your other story where you have your Sun and Leo in the first house, but square the moon saying it's you're denied this impulse to express yourself.

Mars is saying, yeah, you can't even express you're through action, man. you gotta hold back reaction, right? that's part of pillar one is reaction energy, survival energy. we see with Saturn in Aries, limiting action, limiting movement this is almost an echoing of some of that same.

You have to be able to control your reaction if you want to stay safe, if you want to stay protected, if you want to stay alive at its most extreme levels there. And part of that we also know pulling back into the Mercury, pulling back into the Jupiter and Capricorn over here means having a very fucking functional understanding and application of parts.

and wholes and how systems work, and understanding that if you know how a system can work, then you can bypass certain features of it, including reaction to an extent.

And I'm what I'm doing is drawing the contrast between different parts of your story and what we see in the chart, right? So what I'm hearing is that when you met this important person after leaving your husband, and then they showed you metal, it activated Martian word, that it activated in and music, by the way, I associate very much with pillar two and pillar twelve. beat, rhythm.

imagination and transcendence and the ability to escape into music is pillar twelve. they both have and flow,

Kirsten (1:09:38)

Okay.

Laurel Kassor (1:09:40)

so this person showed you metal activated anger, which had been long suppressed as a piece of the whole that we're not allowed to have.

Gotta bypass it somehow, which is on that Mars being in cancer as one myself, although naturally a passive aggressive sign. that is just part about what we learn we can't take action unless we feel safe to do so, is another feature of that.

And then for you in the 12th house and with the square to the Saturn, it's kind of tripling down on this, like, hey, if we really want to survive, we really have to be able to not get angry, to not have a reaction, because it's not safe if we do. It's not gonna be okay if we do. The rules say that we're there's stuff that we wanna get angry about, that that no, no, no, no, no, you're not allowed to have a reaction. Which then, of course.

Cycles back into the Ceres Pluto stuff that exists all the time around senses and Pluto saying we have to kill the senses. Pluto always says we gotta kill something, In order to rebirth it.

make a new relationship with it, spark something new out of it. And so that sarus to me is is very much the senses in the world. And that music is a way of expression. Music probably continue to be an important part of expression and emotionally connecting to self in this journey for you. And so I just wanted to like really make sure that I

illustrated and pulled out that dimension for you

Kirsten (1:11:07)

I just realized it's interesting if if you associate Taurus with music, he has Mars and Taurus. And then I'm also thinking of Mars and the anger activating the moon.

Laurel Kassor (1:11:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. your moon and Taurus is yet another echo off of this same theme we're talking about here, which is there's something about your physical body. It's connected to the disconnect. That happened so early. And it's almost

this process that you've gone through with the music. And by the way, I know you've gone through with creating cosmic mechanics because that's a motherfucking symphony. It might not have music attached to it, but it really is. It's the movement of planets and their cycles and their rhythms. And the whole thing is software tracking cycles and rhythms.

Hello, and inputting that data in a way that's practical and functional and useful, right? it's even in the things that you don't associate with fucking feelings. You know what I'm saying? So but it's there. And it's also to extend it to your current ventures with getting the massage therapy, right?

one of the things that came in really early in this conversation for me was that your Pluto Ceres conjunction in the fifth house in Sagittarius to me is speaking very strongly to the transformative power of touch and exploring touch and exploring intimacy. And you mentioned your orientation towards the kink

community earlier, right? And so there's

Kirsten (1:12:40)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Laurel Kassor (1:12:42)

this trans and which to me is also a way of healing and giving a healthier outlet to some of this energy and

reconnecting body, mind, control.

Reclaiming power from moments and experiences that took power away from us, giving you permission to have impulses, to be stimulated, to have a bodily reaction and touch base with something that is primal and normal. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Kirsten (1:13:14)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, honestly Kink has so many therapeutic abilities.

I would say that it's almost entirely, if not entirely, neurodivergent peeps in the community. But definitely even bondage itself, it's so regulating I can't force myself to do anything if I literally can't. So if I'm stuck with someone safe, then I have to be present and just relax.

that

in itself for me is

lots lots of lots of therapeutic things. I did a lot of my shadow work with a fellow that I met end of twenty twenty four.

Laurel Kassor (1:13:52)

The bondage piece makes a lot of sense with the amount of pillar ten we've seen floating through your chart.

Kirsten (1:14:01)

I need Saturn to hold me.

Ha ha ha.

Laurel Kassor (1:14:07)

Hold me tighter of Saturn. No, but for real, it really is that. And it it is connected to the Mars piece, which has so again, all of these different connections is so critical to the work that you're doing now. I mean even

on the massage front, integrating trauma informed approaches and information, it is also having someone surrender and you be the safe person. Where it might not be king, right? But it's like, no, you can trust me with these feelings. I can hold them just Saturn and his ropes hold me, you know? And that's what we're illustrating here with this whole fucking premise is that

All of these different energies transfer and superimpose on each other at different periods, in different formats, in different environments, in different circumstances. And it's how we develop through these processes that determine what kind of experiences we ultimately end up having with them. And so, touch being transformative, you learning that.

through I'm sure some not so lovely ways earlier in life. And then having this transform into on my motherfucking terms, when I motherfucking say so, with my permission, with my validation, validating you.

Allowing things to be outside of your control in a safe way.

and being transformed and the therapeutic value, right? this is why there is a link between therapy and sex And it's fucking Pluto. And it's the eighth pillar. It's alchemy. It's Scorpio.

It's also about transforming beliefs, right? So in these processes, you are actively transforming beliefs you hold about what being stabilized means for you, what being provisioned means for you. For you, we know because and you brought us to this really early in the interview when I had asked you a moon question it pulls

it back to, that's how we feel safe.

Is when we're physically transforming something in some way because of this earlier experience around the separation of the parts and the journey of back to the whole together. And so that's my take

on how some of this energy

Kirsten (1:16:24)

Yeah.

Laurel Kassor (1:16:25)

connects.

Kirsten (1:16:26)

Yeah!

back to the therapists, which is where we're where we were going with that. the therapist that I got in twenty twenty four is the one that helps me the most.

I have part of one of my sessions with her posted on my Instagram where she she's also a vocal coach. So she's a musician and yeah, and she's also super spiritual and she like mentored me. She was like all the things she was all the things I needed. Yeah,

she's also a Taurus moon like myself, so she was able to understand when I was trying to say I'm having touch deprivation, I'm trying to stay away from other guys. I unfortunately

Had two more problematic guys in my life after but yeah, me communicating, I have touch deprivation. My body is screaming, I need to be held, I need someone to touch me. she really understood that I've noticed that Taurus moons can really need touch in order to regulate. It's it's just kind of how we work.

Laurel Kassor (1:17:19)

Well, it's the moon finding the

moon finding solace in the sign of physical comfort.

Kirsten (1:17:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

with her I did a lot of parts work and IFS and sessions she put me in a meditative state and got me to really check in with my body and what asked me what I need. And I that forced me to reconnect with me because then I had to find me to find out what I needed I also did a whole bunch of like course

And sessions and other things throughout the last few years, but I've kind of become an advocate on a lot of these healing concepts that are being taught. Boundaries, people always talk about boundaries, and something I I've been trying to communicate to people is you can't set a boundary if you don't know who you are, because to set a boundary is to say I

don't something. If there's no I, or if I doesn't know what they like, you can't set a boundary. You have nothing to work off of. So I I'm now like, you actually need a sense of self to be able to set boundaries, and people shouldn't be gaslighting abuse survivors that they could set boundaries, because maybe they lost their self or maybe they never even got to develop one.

Laurel Kassor (1:18:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Betch, yes, that's what I'm fucking

Kirsten (1:18:35)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (1:18:35)

talking about. That's that Saturn in Aries, which by the way, happy Saturn return that you're having currently. Like, basically, as we're sitting here, it's very much alive,

Kirsten (1:18:42)

Well thank you. It's going pretty good so far.

Laurel Kassor (1:18:46)

it's about to come back for its second hit. My kisses to you as you continue to step into your authority

of self.

look at you stepping into your Saturn return and fucking putting back.

Boundaries in place and saying, motherfucker, I can polarize, which is awesome because that north note in Chiron we were talking about earlier was like, I gotta please everyone at first, and now Saturn's come by and it's Chiron, bitch, we gotta teach you something, and it is, and it has been,

Kirsten (1:19:16)

I'm setting

a boundary around boundaries.

Laurel Kassor (1:19:18)

But for real, you are. that's what the Saturn return

is. You know, it's either you're taking accountability for the boundaries you do have set, or you're taking accountability for the boundaries you don't have set. But that is part of what's been going on and not to mention Chiron itself has

For four years been transiting your Aries sector of the charts. And so it has been asked, it's asking all of us, have you optimized your individual impact? Like, do you know what you are as an individual and what you're doing as an individual? And so it just so happens to coincide with a Saturn return for you that that Chiron movement is ending pretty soon.

I'm getting a visual of the cusp of a wave. you're hitting apex of the wave. It's a big wave these are long-term transits you're under. But where you're at now in the journey, what it's serving up is it's time for us to integrate.

All of this shit into systems, which is also part of where the learning is at right now. And all of these different parts integrating together, which pulls us back to some of those pillar 11 aspects we were talking about, those waning semi-sextiles pulls us into Uranus who you have in Aquarius. Hello, very close to your descendant,

So there's been obviously a lot of change happening in the last several years. So there's a lot of waking up and coming to terms and everything. But it's clear that everything that you've been going through has totally given you the tools to

navigate changing perspectives, understanding parts at the individual level and how they relate to other parts.

in a whole and now you're moving into more of a phase where it's great I have such a good education of parts now it's time for me to construct a whole and the first whole is you right and that's part of the journey that you're on now but this education that you're also exploring

Which you've learned a lot of lessons around, which is going to pull in trauma-informed healing and therapeutic practices, It's gonna pull in all of these alternate sources of information and IFS you mentioned and all kinds of other things. it's all kind of integrating together into a whole more holistic understanding of self first.

But backwards. And and that's how it goes when you got retrograde planets sometimes.

Kirsten (1:21:39)

I have lots of those, don't I?

So recently I got confirmation of one of the combination things that I'll be doing because somebody told me that they had experienced trauma with someone who wasn't actually a massage therapist. and she said that she hasn't gotten one since and that she'd be okay she'd be comfortable enough with me doing it.

And then that made me think, okay, that's kinda some of the inklings in my brain were around touch.

as therapy, as psychological therapy. I but gotta be careful with that with my RMT license and what I'm allowed to do, but it might have to be a bodywork thing technically, but it's going to be all of the things together and then also noticing vulnerabilities through medical astrology, which is gonna be something I have to learn later because it's even more complex than the regular astrology.

Laurel Kassor (1:22:24)

yeah, you have to have a really good working understanding of anatomy and

all of the very very practical medical knowledge.

Kirsten (1:22:33)

Yes.

Laurel Kassor (1:22:35)

not like you don't already have some background in it, You know what up.

Kirsten (1:22:37)

Yeah, I know it's really interesting because once I'm finished my school it goes till March twenty twenty eight. we'll be right around when Saturn's going into Taurus. Yeah, and then I will create my new modality. Yeah, let's go.

Laurel Kassor (1:22:49)

This has been so fun. Kirsten, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I really appreciate it. especially the ways we were able to connect some of these dots between the past and the present and how much you've truly fucking overcome to be able to put all of these dots together in in a short amount of time, too, by the way.

where you're really getting a chance and an opportunity to get to know yourself. And I love, love, love the idea of touch as therapy. I have a strong Ceres in my chart too. and I think there are a lot of people who have various reasons.

To reconnect with their body and with the physical sensations of their body and to take it out of the head, and allow that body to speak and go through that cathartic release process and move some of the body blocks. I feel like that Ceres Pluto.

Connecting to Mars, connecting to Saturn, connecting to everybody, is pointing towards is not just dissolve the blocks, although that's part of it, but it's literally about transforming them, dismantling them into small enough bits where we can heal them.

Kirsten (1:24:02)

Yeah, because

I feel now's a good time to bring up the the Virgo Pisces axes. because during the Neptune and Pisces there was a lot. We heard a lot of why are we not treating the body body as a whole and all of that, right? And then when I started the program and I was seeing how anatomy is taught and then it's it's the smaller, the smaller, the smaller. And if you think about the medical industry as a whole, why everything is in specialties, well you think about it's Virgo, right?

wants to master something and Mercury only has so much space it can hold so it's it it specializes in smaller smaller smaller smaller smaller and then the whole medical industry ends up being completely disconnected and then Pisces

Laurel Kassor (1:24:43)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (1:24:44)

was opposing that and being hey what about what about all of this stuff? Why are we all looking only yeah you know and I was this makes sense and then I started mapping out what is every industry's vulnerability based on the sign that's associated with anyway that's a whole tangent.

Laurel Kassor (1:24:58)

it's a really good indicator of this other stuff that we had mentioned earlier about every part, accounting for every part of something. there's so many different parts that happen in your story at once. It makes sense why this energy around understanding and data mapping, data pointing. Again, because there are also these Saturn Mars.

Mercury right at seven degrees all touching

I think they're all very, very interconnected to each other. And so I think that what you're working towards building with and the vision will continue to shape as you continue to learn and

map these pieces together, but I think that you've got a really holistic way of mapping some of these relationships and the fine points between them.

kind of across spectrums and across dimensions, which again pulls in this kind of interdisciplinary thinking too. And also you have the data knowledge literal data coding knowledge. Mercury in in Virgo is a very data turned practical type of right.

Kirsten (1:26:02)

Mm-hmm.

Laurel Kassor (1:26:03)

I think that there'll be a lot of interesting things you'll be able to create with that Leo sun, with that Leo ascendant, where it's like, well, what can I make? What can I create? What can I actualize as a representation of these transformations that I am going through at the internal level?

I just think it's really cool because I think that when we look at your chart and we look at what you've already done in your work, it feels clear, it won't be just body touch that though I think that you'll find ways that incorporate innovation into the mix.

Like almost like create an app or

Kirsten (1:26:36)

yeah.

Laurel Kassor (1:26:37)

something.

Kirsten (1:26:37)

yeah, I I have ten apps planned out. what you see in the physical world is not what's here in the background. We got like a hundred things going on. We're trying to decide we're trying to prioritize over no I I literally have bought ten domains.

Cosmic Mechanics is actually the second app I built. I have not publicly shared the first one because it does use AI and I have some reservations right now because the AI centers weren't built sustainably, so yeah, but it does work.

Laurel Kassor (1:27:09)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (1:27:10)

I know a lot of other people also build AI based astrology apps so it can read the transits against your chart

Laurel Kassor (1:27:18)

Hmm.

Kirsten (1:27:18)

you would write in a journal and then it will pull the transits for that day and read against your chart and associate it with what you just wrote. Yeah. And it works

Laurel Kassor (1:27:25)

No, cool. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm doing right now with

my brain.

Kirsten (1:27:30)

Yeah, it works it works

surprisingly well that's pretty good actually.

Laurel Kassor (1:27:34)

Yeah, cool. Neat. Well Kirsten thank you again so much for being here, for sharing your story.

How can the people follow you for when you're all up and running?

Kirsten (1:27:46)

yeah, right now follow me at the.heartcore.healer on threads or Instagram and then yeah cosmicmechanics.com is up and running. I will be continuing to tweak that as I go. I'm not very good at updating the social media page, but things get released pretty consistently on there.

Laurel Kassor (1:28:07)

Yes, we love cosmic

mechanics. seriously, y'all, if you are looking for a new astrology software, I can't express how much I love it. it has made it so easy to isolate aspects and anything you want it to do, it's likely already doing it.

Mwah, mwah, thank you for making such a fun way to re engage with astrology,

Kirsten (1:28:28)

to hear that. Thank you.

Laurel Kassor (1:28:30)

You're so welcome. Well, okay, my friends.

If this episode got you wondering what it would be to have my eyes on your chart, then I'd love to support you through readings, which you can find on my website, soularcastrology.com You can also find me at threads at astro_aries or on Instagram at soularc_astrology And don't forget to stay in orbit by subscribing, leave a comment to let me know what's landing for you, and of course, sprinkle some stardust by sharing this podcast with the Astro Hoes in your life. Until next time, seekers.