EP14 The Ever-Evolving Onion: Peeling Back The Layers of Overgiving with Mackenzie Gelina
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EP14 The Ever-Evolving Onion: Peeling Back The Layers of Overgiving with Mackenzie Gelina
Most people learn to overgive before they learn to trust themselves. Mackenzie Gelina shares how yoga, shamanic healing, and seasonal astrology became the path back to her voice after grief, people pleasing, and years of feeling unsafe in her own body.
Expert astrologer Laurel Kassor sits down with the founder of Big Love Studio for a conversation that turns personal history into a roadmap for self-trust. Mackenzie opens up about the practices that helped her untangle energetic cords, reconnect with her intuition, and build a business around helping women stop silencing themselves. You’ll discover:
How Mackenzie’s Libra Moon reflects themes of emotional safety, relationship, acceptance, and overgiving
The Saturn–Neptune conjunction in her fifth house square her Moon, and the tension between creative surrender and needing structure to feel safe
The “fix it” tension between her Libra Moon and Taurus Mercury
Why Ceres conjunct Venus in Taurus became such a literal signature for textiles, comfort, beauty, food, and material resources
How the mat can become a mirror for meeting yourself with more honesty and less judgment
Why shamanic healing can uncover what is blocking your expression on an energetic level
The surprising way grief, redirection, and intuition shaped Mackenzie’s path
How seasonal astrology can help you understand your own cycles and make clearer choices
Why structure, safety, and self-expression are more connected than you think
Laurel also brings her signature astrological lens to Mackenzie’s chart, tracing the patterns behind early experiences of danger, voice suppression, and the lifelong need for clear rules, grounding, and agency. The conversation reveals how formative moments can echo for decades, and how healing asks you to reclaim choice where it was once taken away.
This episode is for anyone who has ever felt too much, too loud, too sensitive, or too unsure of their place. It’s also for the practitioners, creatives, and spiritual seekers who want a deeper understanding of how astrology, embodiment, and energy work can support real transformation.
Mackenzie shares how those lessons now live inside Big Love Studio, where she offers seasonal astrology, shamanic healing sessions, and gentle yoga practices designed to help people feel more at home in themselves. If you’re craving a conversation that is equal parts insight, resonance, and soul-deep permission, this one will stay with you.
Get in Mackenzie’s Orbit:
@biglovestudio | http://biglovestudio.com/
Get in Laurel’s Orbit:
@astro_aries | soularcastrology.com/madeforthis
Chapters
00:00 Meet Mackenzie Gelina: Shamanic Healing, Yoga & Astrology
00:52 From People-Pleasing to Shamanic Healing
04:35 Yoga, Discomfort & Learning to Trust Yourself
07:22 Reading Mackenzie’s Birth Chart
12:22 How Childhood Experiences Shape Adult Patterns
14:03 The Childhood Drowning Experience That Resurfaced Years Later
21:17 Childhood Trauma, Emotional Safety & Self-Expression
31:31 Libra Moon, Emotional Comfort & Overgiving
34:36 Pluto, Authority & Being Told She Was “Too Much”
48:55 Relationships, Identity & Learning to Choose Yourself
59:43 Finding Her Voice Through Art, Astrology & Self-Advocacy
01:18:55 Grief, Life, Death & Rebirth Cycles
01:25:13 Truth, Self-Trust & Shamanic Healing
01:29:49 Breaking the Rules of People-Pleasing
01:35:08 The Ever-Evolving Journey of Becoming Yourself
Laurel Kassor (00:10)
Welcome to Orbit Seekers. This is episode 14 of Made for This with Laurel Kassor the podcast where soul-led practitioners, educators, and creatives come together to connect the constellations of how astrology turns from abstract insight to real-world impact when you follow your soul's arc. I'm Laurel Kassor your astro oracle host and the founder of Soul A.R.C. Astrology.
And today I have the mystical Mackenzie Gelina Mackenzie has an Aries sun, Libra Moon, and Leo rising. She is a big heart and the founder behind Big Love Studio, where she helps women who have silenced their inner voice from overgiving turn the volume back up on their self-trust through a combination of shamanic energy healing,
yoga, and seasonal astrology. Her story is one where every closed door turned out to be a redirection and grief turned out to be the greatest teacher of all.
I'm sure her chart is just teeming with clues. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me today.
Mackenzie Gelina (01:08)
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, Laurel.
Laurel Kassor (01:12)
This is so exciting. Mackenzie, would you please tell us a little bit more about the shamanic yoga energy astrology mashup work that you do?
Mackenzie Gelina (01:23)
Yes, I weave a lot of things together. I'm if you're into human design too, I'm a manifesting generator. So weave it all together. That's part
Laurel Kassor (01:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (01:33)
of it. But I did yeah, I started in yoga back in when did I do my 2016, I think. And that kind of led me down the rabbit hole to everything else. And then I started doing
energy healing work through Reiki. Reiki was l my little gateway drug into shamanic healing. And then
Laurel Kassor (01:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (01:56)
I found for myself that shamanic healing personally helped me kind of come into a greater understanding of who I was and let go of some of those people pleasing tendencies and the places
Laurel Kassor (02:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (02:11)
that I would overgive. But also helped me
clear so much energy from that were blocks or chords from other people that were kind of getting in the way of my own voice. and as I was teaching yoga, a lot of what I was teaching people was about the mat being a mirror and that
Laurel Kassor (02:35)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (02:36)
Every time you show up on your mat, you are showing up as a new version of yourself. Because today you might have not slept very well last night, right? But yesterday, maybe you had great sleep, maybe you had the best day ever, maybe you had the food that felt really good for your body, you know. And so every day you get to meet that version of yourself.
Laurel Kassor (03:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (03:05)
you
get to meet her and you or him or they or them and say, do I want to show up and love this version of myself?
Laurel Kassor (03:15)
Hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (03:16)
Or do I want to judge this version of myself? Because all of them are you. And so it really became this practice over when I was
I was teaching full time for three years, teaching yoga for three years. And it became this practice with my students where every time we showed up, we got to ask that question. And it was less about the poses, and it was less about being flexible, and it was less about being able to balance, and it was more about how are you meeting yourself here
Laurel Kassor (03:50)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (03:50)
in this moment where
We might be in chair pose three or four fucking times in this class and you're I'm uncomfortable. And I'm can you still meet yourself? Can you
Laurel Kassor (04:01)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (04:03)
still bring in the discomfort in the places where you're, you know, you're not sure about this or you're and all of that translates off the map. And that's what,
Laurel Kassor (04:15)
totally.
Mackenzie Gelina (04:16)
you know, it's
into your daily life. And then you get to meet yourself in a bunch of other uncomfortable situations because life be that. And it's just like it's just
like, shit, here I am again with you know,
you can't run away from yourself ever. So can you get
Laurel Kassor (04:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (04:39)
comfortable with yourself? And also practice being
in discomfort, right?
Laurel Kassor (04:48)
It's crazy. You literally
just took the words. I don't know if I took the words out of your head or you took the words out of mine, but I was literally just sitting here staring
Mackenzie Gelina (04:51)
Yeah Probably both.
Laurel Kassor (04:55)
at your chart and being like, and staying, and staying
Mackenzie Gelina (04:58)
Yes.
Laurel Kassor (04:58)
still, stay and being inside of. And then there you went with the staying in the discomfort. a million percent. Keep talking. That was just, I was wow.
Mackenzie Gelina (05:06)
Yes. Exactly.
Yeah. And I mean, and that's what we do in shamanic healing too in sessions. in those sessions, we're meeting the discomfort and then we're relieving it in some way. We're moving the energy just on a different plane, right? Where I'm working with spirit guides and we're and I'm kind of translating what they're doing on the energetic plane.
you know I'm helping to move the energy and moving the session along but but we're also getting information from that spirit realm on what is in the way of you moving forward, right? Because you can do yoga and that is a wonderful practice of meeting yourself and being with yourself and loving yourself wherever you are.
And then there's the next layer, right? And the shamanic healing kind of gets into that of what's in your way of showing up as fully yourself, right?
Laurel Kassor (06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (06:05)
And I think I learned this a lot more after my training. I did my training, which was a nine month training. And then I continued practicing with people a little bit.
But after my twelfth house perfected year or during my twelfth house perfected year, when I was 35 to now 37, for the past two years, I've literally been going almost weekly to my own shamanic healing sessions and receiving. And
Laurel Kassor (06:35)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (06:38)
that's when I was like, shit, this stuff is crazy. it was like this embodiment.
practice, right? Where I knew what was happening. I understood
Laurel Kassor (06:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (06:49)
it from that kind of knowledge perspective, but it was this moment where I was like, I see how this can absolutely turn lives around because I was in such a low dark place at that moment and I wasn't really living my truth.
Laurel Kassor (07:09)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (07:10)
And then I was just
I gotta do something about this. I found my shaman and I followed my intuition, went to a class. I thought the teacher was gonna be my
shaman that I worked with. And it was actually her assistant.
And I I walked up to her literally before we started.
I was I just walked up to her and I said, Do you do sessions? And she was Yeah. And I go, Can I have your card? And she was just
Laurel Kassor (07:37)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (07:38)
Yeah. And I was just Okay. I mean, we'll see what happens, but I just pinpointed her before the teacher even started going on the class.
Laurel Kassor (07:48)
This is so interesting. Usually on the pod we don't talk about transits of specific times. but I I have
your chart up right next to me. We're about to dig into your story here in a second. but I it's
Mackenzie Gelina (07:57)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (07:58)
just blaring at me that you said about
Two years? It's been about two years that you've been in that section of the journey. Okay. Your sun is at 29 degrees Aries. Your Venus is at three degrees Taurus. Your Ceres is at three degrees or four degrees Taurus. Pluto
Mackenzie Gelina (08:15)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (08:15)
has been transiting out from Capricorn, which is in a square to your sun, into Aquarius, which is in a square to your
Venus and your Ceres, which is it's it's been actively in square positioning to your planets for over two years now.
but I bet you the retrograding actions of Pluto going from basically 27 Capricorn, which i is back from like, I don't know, off the top of my head, 2022, 21, 22, I don't know. That that forward, backward, forward, backward.
Mackenzie Gelina (08:44)
Yep, that's feels right.
Laurel Kassor (08:46)
Backward out, literally going in and then backing up and in and backing up between
Mackenzie Gelina (08:51)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (08:52)
29 degree cap to your Aries Sun Square. So I'm and shamanism itself, the therapeutic practices, transformational practices are so Pluto-coated, so Pluto-coated. so
Mackenzie Gelina (09:04)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (09:05)
hello, and it was in your sixth.
house. It was literally in process of crossing your your fifth house cusp, which is at zero degrees Aquarius, or your sixth house cusp, which is zero degrees Aquarius. So it literally was going from
confidence, literally dump trucking confidence for a little while there to entering new ground into practice, which would be the sixth house. and the assistant too, which is even wilder to me because in my system I do treat
Mackenzie Gelina (09:38)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (09:39)
Chiron, Virgo, the sixth house, and the
Mackenzie Gelina (09:42)
Uh-huh.
Laurel Kassor (09:42)
the opening quincunx aspect. They all are sourced from Pillar Six.
In my system, that is the refinement pillar. Each pillar is a source field of energy that all of the planets, science, houses, and aspects pull their essence forth from. And so part of this Pillar Six refinement energy, part of its quantum field.
of potentials is things like interns and assistants and peop the fun
Mackenzie Gelina (10:13)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (10:13)
the pr and practition the facilitators, right? it is this like people in training, right? Pe being trained,
Mackenzie Gelina (10:19)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (10:20)
because this is a pillar and therefore a house of training and of r repetitive honing of craft. And so anyway, it's just
Mackenzie Gelina (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (10:30)
s
So loudly jumping out at me that that time period, that 35 mark is one million percent, went online with some significant once-in-a-lifetime Pluto tensions. where Pluto
Mackenzie Gelina (10:43)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (10:43)
is literally looking at and still is literally right now, right now, is in square to these energies and has been looking at them and is we're gonna build something, we're gonna build something, we're gonna build something, we're gonna mature something, we're gonna mature something.
Mature something, but we have to end and annihilate something about our health, our practices, our competency,
Mackenzie Gelina (11:05)
Ha ha.
Laurel Kassor (11:06)
our what used to be effective or efficient to us. there's a lot of excavating of the what's a good word for it? the problems, the things that we would assign problemship to.
being transformed actively and having that come through. What is it you create? What is it you connect with? And what is it that you anchor to? So super interesting and nice alternative way of starting the pod.
Mackenzie Gelina (11:31)
Yeah.
Wait, so you said twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two it started?
Laurel Kassor (11:35)
I mean I can yeah,
let me pull it up real quick. To get the exact
Mackenzie Gelina (11:38)
Because that
when my dad passed at the end of twenty twenty one. And that was basically when I went down into my underworld journey. So I'm just yeah, that makes
Laurel Kassor (11:48)
Damn well yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (11:51)
a lot of sense.
Laurel Kassor (11:53)
I mean I'm going back to you said he was at the end of twenty twenty one?
Mackenzie Gelina (11:56)
Yeah, December. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (11:58)
Yeah,
t sh it Pluto was at twenty-five degrees Capricorn, your sun's at twenty-nine,
That to me, I mean it's not the only thing that's going on. Pluto is also in a very tight waning quincunx to your Mars, who rules your Sun So it is tied in
Mackenzie Gelina (12:12)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (12:12)
with some father's stuff and life, pillar one, Mars,
Mackenzie Gelina (12:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (12:17)
Aries, the first house, the conjunction, all have something to do with the life force energy to me.
So, Mackenzie, we love to start this journey into why you were made to do the shamanic yo yog yogi yoganic. I yogianic. There isn't a word that, is there? Yogic. No. Okay. I thought I would try. Okay. so let's find
Mackenzie Gelina (12:34)
I don't know. I don't think so. But sure.
Laurel Kassor (12:41)
out what happened in the early parts of our life that set this
Mackenzie Gelina (12:45)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (12:46)
soul syllabus template into place. The technique I use, we look at
where various planets fall in the chart and they have associated ages attached to them. So to s your first planet that I spy looks it
It would have come online around the age of four and a half-ish, four or four and a half-ish. Now, this is your moon in Libra. So when we are that age, remember we are we are viewing our chart and our lived experiences through the consciousness.
of a four year old, right? So there's not
Mackenzie Gelina (13:24)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (13:25)
necessarily a whole lot of logic there. There's a lot of how are we perceiving the things? And that's part of what is getting locked and anchored in the it's the inner child. It's how we how our inner child is formed to an extent, right? And so it looks it was about this age four and a half where there could have been something really important or fundamental with with your mother. the moon often
Mackenzie Gelina (13:49)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (13:50)
Represents mother, especially in the early experiences of life. but that can double as multiple other things too. That could be things about feeling safe, feeling cared for, feeling protected, feeling this could even be shelter
of some sort. This could have to do with the home, there could be stuff with a house involved. There's a lot of different ways. This is Libra, so the odds of it involving other people are very extremely high. and it could be about pleasing, it could be about looks, even.
It could be about aesthetic value to an extent. And lastly, before I hand the mic off to you, it is in the second house. So this could have to do with physical possessions as well. Is there anything that comes to mind for you? Okay, take it away.
Mackenzie Gelina (14:33)
yeah.
when I was I was around that age. I don't know exactly, but I fell off a boat without a life jacket with and that was my earliest memory.
Laurel Kassor (14:53)
And it's the moon and moon's memory.
Mackenzie Gelina (14:54)
yeah. And
I wasn't I was with another family. And yeah, so I wasn't with my mom. But my mom worked with them, worked with those people. Yeah. It's a very formative memory of mine. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (15:12)
for
sure, because your life was in danger, number one. Number two, your safe
Mackenzie Gelina (15:16)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (15:17)
space wasn't there immediat upon immediately
Mackenzie Gelina (15:20)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (15:22)
retrieval, who do you go hug? this other mommy barely know? Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (15:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I didn't know how swim at that point. So
Laurel Kassor (15:29)
my god.
Mackenzie Gelina (15:30)
yeah. So on top of that, so I actually remember floating under the water and just seeing the bottom of the lake. And there there's so many weird details about this too. It's when for whatever reason I remember the conversation with the parents.
that were there. they had a kid my age and that's why they brought me.
Laurel Kassor (15:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (15:54)
But I remember with the con I was sitting behind the dad in the in the on the driver's side, in the back. And I remember saying, Where are we going? And they said, we're going to this part of the lake that we really And I was okay. And they said, and I they said it's called the black hole.
And I remember that very specifically.
Laurel Kassor (16:18)
Almost a little bit of foreshadowing it would probably feel
Mackenzie Gelina (16:20)
yeah,
it definitely felt that way. and I was just like, okay. And then they and then we went out on the boat, we went on the tubes and I had a life jacket on on that point, but then we were sitting on the boat and they took my life jacket off for whatever reason, even though they knew I couldn't swim. And then I fell off the edge of the boat 'cause we were just sitting there on the edge of the boat,
yeah. Wild.
Laurel Kassor (16:49)
That is really wild. So a couple immediate things. Immediate things
Mackenzie Gelina (16:53)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (16:54)
in your chart stand out about this moment in time. So not only
Mackenzie Gelina (16:57)
Interesting.
Laurel Kassor (16:58)
at these formative plot points does our relationship with that particular planet begin. It's kind of we're looking at our chart. If you're if you think of this a birth chart and
Each planet along the edge is almost a lookout point into the center of it.
Mackenzie Gelina (17:11)
Hm
Laurel Kassor (17:12)
And, you know, it's you're looking into the center of the chart through the moon's side, through the moon lens. Okay. So not only did the moon come online for you, anything the moon touches by aspect comes online too, via relationship to the moon.
So it's however the moon perceives that planet through its lens at that time begins the template between in your case the moon and these a couple other planets So one of the most immediate immediates to me was the fact that your moon at 14 degrees Libra is in a very tight square, a tense aspect.
To your Neptune-Saturn conjunction. This is a very
Mackenzie Gelina (17:56)
Okay.
Laurel Kassor (17:57)
big deal because Neptune very, very, very much has to do with drowning. Like superly has to do with drowning, and superly has
Mackenzie Gelina (18:06)
Wow.
Laurel Kassor (18:07)
to do with water. Uh-huh. And you are not even the first person on this podcast who has had drowning near-death stuff.
With Neptune involved, you are the third, or maybe even the fourth. You are episode
Mackenzie Gelina (18:22)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (18:22)
14. Are you kidding me? What? Anyway. I thank you so much. Thank you. My son Square Neptune really appreciates the support from my fellow mystics.
Mackenzie Gelina (18:25)
We're all here for you, Laurel.
Laurel Kassor (18:32)
but no, but for real,
Mackenzie Gelina (18:32)
Somebody.
Laurel Kassor (18:33)
so
The moon square that Neptune Saturn immediately sets up a tension connection between features and processes of the moon, which has to do with emotional safety, feeling protected, feeling
Mackenzie Gelina (18:46)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (18:47)
accepted, feeling we belong. This wasn't your family. So even if they were nice people,
Mackenzie Gelina (18:52)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (18:53)
you knew you didn't belong with them. And maybe
Mackenzie Gelina (18:56)
Right, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (18:57)
And not even the not to put thoughts into your child brain, but it is possible
Mackenzie Gelina (19:00)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (19:01)
that part of your child brain knew that if you were with your parents, that wouldn't have happened. You know, that my parents would never have.
Mackenzie Gelina (19:06)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (19:10)
I would be safe with them, but I wasn't with them, right? So there's that's a possible kind of train of thought. I'm not saying it's the exact one, but
This square, it is a what we would call a waning square. And so in my system, the waning square is associated with pillar 10. Pillar 10 is the authority pillar, I call it, and it consists of Saturn, Capricorn, the 10th house, and the waning square.
This energy is a waning square to Saturn in Capricorn, which means we go plop, plop, plop. We got a big echo of this Pillar 10 authority energy. This extends to rules and guidelines and
Mackenzie Gelina (19:54)
Hmm.
Laurel Kassor (19:54)
systems, right? And the rules are you're supposed to be wearing this life vest. The rules were not followed.
Mackenzie Gelina (19:59)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (20:01)
And that
Almost killed you, right? You didn't know what happened. I can imagine you didn't know what the fuck happened. It probably felt it happened fast. it's confusing too because Neptune is here. Neptune inherently is a is in a confusing and kind of dreamy floaty. vibe, right?
Mackenzie Gelina (20:18)
Loki.
Laurel Kassor (20:18)
It is attached to Saturn.
Which means for you at all times, neither Neptune's flexibility nor Saturn's rigidity exists without the other. They are constantly tied up together. And so what I'm hearing through this initial formative story here is that from a very, very early time, your safety.
got tied up in your head, you're feeling protected, got tied up into your head with holy shit, if we do not follow the ever-changing rules and figure out exactly
Mackenzie Gelina (20:55)
my god.
Laurel Kassor (20:55)
something I this the these ever-changing, ever-shifting rules where wait, it was on me before, but it wasn't then, why not? you know what I'm saying? That created
Mackenzie Gelina (21:05)
So much.
Laurel Kassor (21:06)
this tension, and part of the square tension of the waning square
with so much other Pillar Ten undertone brings in restriction, limitation, order, a
need to be responsible and and r and respectable and it transfers into success. It transfers into being able to successfully accomplish things, right? And so it because it starts with these I this idea of rules and that there is some sort of guideline in which in your case is supposed to finger
Protect us, but also you have to work really hard if you want the rules to protect you because they're really changing all the time. You never know when you're when they're just gonna slip
Mackenzie Gelina (21:47)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (21:48)
through, even if they are supposed to be very well known there. So I'm gonna close my fire hose for a second.
Mackenzie Gelina (21:56)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (21:57)
How is that landing? It's not the only thing that came online. We'll talk about the other ones, but how is that landing for you?
Mackenzie Gelina (22:02)
I mean, rules, I have a I have a friend who's very rule averse. She's my best friend and she's always You're very connected to the rules and I was just Yeah, if I don't know how the rules, how am I gonna do it? how what do you mean? we don't we're we're not safe if we don't do the rules, right? And so and that even just like okay, this is a very different example, but
I have been having a hard time making carousels on Instagram because I don't know what the rules are. I'm just like, give me a freaking structure.
Laurel Kassor (22:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, no perfect. I'm so glad that you brought that up. I'm I'm so glad you brought that up because I was gonna say,
but this is an even better example of it, that this
Mackenzie Gelina (22:42)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (22:42)
isn't just about the rules, this is about the rules of expression.
because this is this your Saturn
Mackenzie Gelina (22:46)
god.
Laurel Kassor (22:47)
Neptune in the fifth house, right?
Mackenzie Gelina (22:50)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (22:52)
The life jacket situation, literally and remember, when we are children, we really do experience this energy at a much more base level. It's much
Mackenzie Gelina (23:01)
Right. Yes.
Laurel Kassor (23:02)
less complex in nature.
not saying that complex things don't happen, but I'm saying the way things show up tend to be quite complex.
a bit more literal. and so what we're seeing in this configuration for you is that the safety item, moon in
Mackenzie Gelina (23:19)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (23:20)
the second house. Okay, it is a literal possession. The the physical product is the vest, right? The second
Mackenzie Gelina (23:29)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (23:29)
house belongs to pillar two, the anchor pillar, which consists of Ceres, Taurus, and the second house and the
waxing semi sexile. Okay? So
We have the the moon being protecting protective items, items that feel safe, items that protect us, right? and it's in Libra, so it has to do with other people. your case was literally about other people making sure you had that, that you were sheltered and protected and cared for by providing you the item, right? that, yes, okay. And then the square to Saturn, which is also remember, pillar 10 essence can be denial. It was not.
Given to you, you are not taken care of in that way. and
Mackenzie Gelina (24:09)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (24:09)
then which is very confusing because you were before, but then you weren't, but then you were, but then you weren't, and then you're in the water drowning. where also you do not know the rules of swimming, you do not know the rules of the water, you don't. And so
Mackenzie Gelina (24:19)
No. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (24:20)
Then when you're pulled out, I can imagine how you and we've said this kind of before, it's not even you could really feel comforted or express maybe what in distress you were in because your people weren't there. You know, they're you so the Saturn idea of expressing, we how do we express what happened to us? there's
Mackenzie Gelina (24:38)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (24:39)
these rules around
fun even because it's also like you were tubing
Mackenzie Gelina (24:43)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (24:43)
and then you were in the water and it wasn't fun anymore. So there's a lot of different features of confusion there. Now let's translate that to Instagram. A carousel is a digital product.
That is used to connect with people. This is the moon in Libra in the second house. Okay? this is something where now you're like, I gotta provide this thing. I gotta provide this nice pretty
Mackenzie Gelina (25:07)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (25:08)
thing. these are different features of the same energy, but they're coming from the same fucking source pool. And we're feeling
Mackenzie Gelina (25:12)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (25:14)
again this denial, this struggle, this confusion around well, what the fuck are the rules of expression? this is very
Mackenzie Gelina (25:21)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (25:21)
confusing. how am I
and then it becomes limiting because if you don't have maybe even like a template even can be really helpful, I can imagine for
Mackenzie Gelina (25:31)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (25:32)
you having something to anchor to. Again, I can imagine that you would be a person who, like me, has an emotional support water bottle. And it's I need to know where my shit is, you know? Yes. There it is. There she is. You know, and I know a lot of
Mackenzie Gelina (25:42)
I'm just here she is.
Laurel Kassor (25:47)
people do have that, but
Mackenzie Gelina (25:50)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (25:50)
It's more than the item. It's a lifeline. it literally it can feel items are lifelines in a sense. And how do you translate? How do you convey the s the structures when you don't know the rules? When everyone does it differently, because this wasn't how my parents did it. I don't think this is
Mackenzie Gelina (26:09)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (26:09)
how they would have done it, you know, and then it's so do you see the connection between the two?
Mackenzie Gelina (26:13)
Yeah.
So much. Yeah. And
Laurel Kassor (26:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (26:16)
and I was just thinking in my head, when I go out in my car somewhere and I have my water bottle with me, I might not touch it the entire time. But if I don't have it, I'll and I notice I'll immediately start choking. I'm just
Laurel Kassor (26:29)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (26:30)
I need I
need water And I'm just What?
Laurel Kassor (26:32)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (26:33)
what is that about? But it makes yeah
Laurel Kassor (26:35)
It's also your connection
to the to the yoga mats too. We haven't gotten there all the way yet, but we will. But we will. the a mat is you can mat can be anything. it can be anywhere, right?
Mackenzie Gelina (26:39)
Yeah. Okay. it Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (26:46)
the rules are what you make them on the mat. You express yourself through
Mackenzie Gelina (26:49)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (26:50)
anchoring on the mat. Anyway, we'll get more into that
Mackenzie Gelina (26:53)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (26:54)
too, but I also wanted to point out that's not the only thing that came the fuck online at that time.
Mackenzie Gelina (26:59)
Yeah, what else? Tell me.
Laurel Kassor (27:00)
There was also an exact
waning semi-sextile to Pluto, who is is a crisis
planet. the waning semi-sextile is an aspect that it relates to pillar 12, which consists of Pisces, Neptune, the 12th house.
So it has a water undertone to it. It has this
Mackenzie Gelina (27:25)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (27:26)
lost energy. It has a grief energy. It also has a transcendent energy. It also has a unifying energy. Which same for Neptune, by the way. I know there's a shit ton more I could say about Neptune. I know I mostly talked about Saturn, but everything I'm saying applies also in essence to Neptune too. And
Mackenzie Gelina (27:43)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (27:44)
that that
floaty, dreamy, confusing, spinny kind of energy, which also has to do with channeling. It's really interesting. A lot of
Mackenzie Gelina (27:56)
That's
Laurel Kassor (27:56)
the people on who have come on this podcast, I have Neptune shit going on too, but there is a
Mackenzie Gelina (28:01)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (28:02)
common connection with these Pillar 12 qualities and expressions and channeling and being able to
multi-dimensionally cross awareness
Mackenzie Gelina (28:13)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (28:14)
is there. Now I think it was really interesting. You specifically pulled out that you remember staring at the bottom of the lake. What a bizarre and meta life and death but being literally between moment that must have been.
Mackenzie Gelina (28:29)
And I I wasn't even flailing.
Laurel Kassor (28:33)
you weren't even flailing.
Mackenzie Gelina (28:34)
No, I I just was floating. I
was just floating there and I was just Huh, I guess I'm here now
Laurel Kassor (28:42)
Mm.
Do you have any approximation of how long you were under for?
Mackenzie Gelina (28:45)
I have no idea. I actually didn't remember anything that happened after I was floating underwater until recently in a shamanic healing session. And it was I was receiving it. My my shaman was kind of talking through her end of it. And then all of a sudden the memory came into my brain and I
remembered what happened afterward. And
Laurel Kassor (29:12)
Mm. Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (29:14)
and that was really interesting based on what you're saying too, because they from what I received, they pulled me on deck and they just scrubbed me with a towel and were You're okay, you're okay, you're okay, you're okay. And so I didn't ever get to express anything.
Laurel Kassor (29:32)
There it is. There she is. There's that square.
Mackenzie Gelina (29:34)
anything that
I was feeling, right? So I I just think it's so interesting what you're saying because I'm just going
I didn't I you know, and this was just a few months ago that I I got that information, right?
Laurel Kassor (29:49)
That's crazy. Whoa.
Mackenzie Gelina (29:51)
Wild. Yeah.
Just two or three months ago. But I just burst into tears and was just like, my God, I remember what happened. Like I remember.
Laurel Kassor (30:00)
It makes so much
sense that you would have NYX that bad boy.
Mackenzie Gelina (30:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (30:06)
remember how I was literally just maybe you didn't feel you could express yourself on board with those people so quite literally I don't mean to put words into your experience,
Mackenzie Gelina (30:10)
Yes, just they were like, You're okay, you're okay.
Laurel Kassor (30:13)
but Well
Mackenzie Gelina (30:14)
No,
you're just you're just feeling the energy. You're just Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (30:17)
For real, sometimes it's it's always a constant
practice of trusting your own Wowsers, Mausers. That is insane.
Mackenzie Gelina (30:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (30:25)
So clearly this set a massive precedent into the
Mackenzie Gelina (30:29)
Yeah, it's it.
Laurel Kassor (30:30)
life around there being order
and structure to f to
Mackenzie Gelina (30:36)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (30:37)
feeling, to safety, to
And to acceptance in some way that there is some, okay, we got some confusion. Things are not always as they seem. you can't trust everyone, apparently, it would seem either. things can be very confusing and very scary. So we learned this that there's this in-between space pretty early, it sounds and then the other thing, and then we're gonna move on to the next one. So we'll kind of hit this one.
relatively quick quickly because we're about to come directly back to it. But the moon
Mackenzie Gelina (31:06)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (31:08)
also was in a connection to your Mercury in Taurus. And the Moon is in
quinks. So it carries the undertone of pillar six, which is the refinement pillar, which has to do with Virgo and Chiron in the sixth house. And so there is a
Mackenzie Gelina (31:22)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (31:22)
fix it quality that runs beneath and between the moon and Mercury in your chart. And they are kind of constantly in a process
of trying
Mackenzie Gelina (31:32)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (31:33)
to
to fix. well, Mercury's trying to fix the moon. Poor moon. Poor moon. Fast little moon.
Mackenzie Gelina (31:37)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (31:38)
All these s anyone slower than the moon is doing it their shit at the moon. So Mercury's
Mackenzie Gelina (31:42)
Ha ha.
Laurel Kassor (31:44)
Be logical, feelings. And the Moon is I don't know about that. That's I don't feel safe. Give me something to feel safe about, please.
Mackenzie Gelina (31:52)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (31:52)
a blanket. something
Mackenzie Gelina (31:54)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (31:54)
nice and cuddly, I don't know, good vibes, you know? yeah. So yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (31:57)
I literally designed
these blankets too.
Laurel Kassor (32:00)
Shut the fuck up! No way, dude! No way! that's
Mackenzie Gelina (32:05)
And I talk
about I talk about them as like ways where you can have
Laurel Kassor (32:09)
You said weaving.
Mackenzie Gelina (32:10)
your feelings.
Laurel Kassor (32:11)
We're coming back to that. we're about we're literally like we're we're leaving it to come immediately back to it here in a second. There's so much and you had said weaving earlier. I have theories, I have so many theories about the Taurus epicenter
Mackenzie Gelina (32:20)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (32:24)
and
weaving like the fabrics.
Mackenzie Gelina (32:27)
I went to school for textile design.
Laurel Kassor (32:30)
I knew you were gonna say that! Shut up! we're not all the way there yet. I wanna get over there. I'm just gonna say it all. I'm gonna skip ahead. I'm gonna skip out of
Mackenzie Gelina (32:36)
Ha ha ha
Laurel Kassor (32:38)
time. again, you have fucking Ceres in Taurus. You have Venus
Mackenzie Gelina (32:41)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (32:43)
in Taurus. You have them conjunct. They're both conjunct the sun, by the way, who's in Aries. In
Mackenzie Gelina (32:49)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (32:49)
my system, Ceres is the ruler of Taurus, that not Venus. And so.
Mackenzie Gelina (32:53)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (32:54)
In your chart, they fucking are
Mackenzie Gelina (33:00)
Ha ha ha.
Laurel Kassor (33:00)
mixed up together. Like they're mixed together. but what that to me is really emphasizing though, because Ceres is in Ceres' sign, it's a turn up on her pillar, which is gonna orient everything just a little bit toward pillar two themes.
Then pillar seven.
Themes, which would be the Venus and the Libra and the shit. And so Pillar 2 themes have a way more to do with the physical stuff and things of the world and the resources. And literally, I have seen Ceres and and Taurus stuff turn up in textiles so often, all of the time. And
Mackenzie Gelina (33:40)
It's amazing.
Laurel Kassor (33:41)
so I have I'm God, there's something with fucking weaving and fabrics. And and I think it has to do with comfort and it has to do with softness as well.
Mackenzie Gelina (33:48)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (33:48)
well 'cause blankets we do use them for comfort, right? that they are comfort items. s
Mackenzie Gelina (33:51)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (33:52)
pretty much strictly. That's what they are, you know.
Mackenzie Gelina (33:55)
Yes, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (33:56)
And so yeah, I I really think that that's just so fascinating because there is this deep essence then the the design I think is a little bit more on that on that Venus coming in where she
Mackenzie Gelina (34:10)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (34:10)
is okay, fabric's cool, but pretty. Let's make them nice.
Mackenzie Gelina (34:14)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (34:14)
let's make them look beautiful. Yeah, because you could
Mackenzie Gelina (34:15)
Gotta be pretty. Yes.
Laurel Kassor (34:18)
just make fucking blankets, and that's that. And that's all, and they're just they're just blankets and they're functional.
They keep you warm, cool. But no, you have very beautiful blankets, right? So that's just a side note. I can't even help but point
Mackenzie Gelina (34:31)
Yes.
Laurel Kassor (34:31)
out, But okay, let's scoot our boots along to
our next plot point. This
Mackenzie Gelina (34:39)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (34:40)
one happens in your third house at about
About mm, let's call it seven and a half or eight years old. This is your Pluto moment. So this
Mackenzie Gelina (34:50)
Okay.
Laurel Kassor (34:51)
would be same pattern activation from before.
We're looking at this old pattern again from a new lens a few years later. So it's not even that long,
Mackenzie Gelina (34:59)
Okay.
Laurel Kassor (35:00)
right? But we are about eight-ish now.
This is Pluto and Scorpio in the third house. So things that we've seen this area
Mackenzie Gelina (35:08)
huh.
Laurel Kassor (35:08)
come up as is siblings for sure. It can come up as siblings. It comes up as school, early schooling experiences quite a bit. So that can be peers, classmates, can be t teachers, those early childhood teachers a lot. neighborhoods, of course, is another common thing. This can have a lot to do with learning as well.
it can have a lot to do with just the the
Processes of exchanging oneself in the world. This is Pluto, so it does tend to have a pretty significant transformative quality. so it
Mackenzie Gelina (35:41)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (35:41)
can be another like type of life, life and death feeling event. it can be a sense of coercion or abuse at its worst,
but it definitely tends to s coincide with what can feel or be perceived as a crisis.
Is
there anything coming
Mackenzie Gelina (35:56)
Yeah.
So seven or eight you were talking about?
Laurel Kassor (36:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (36:02)
The main thing that's coming to mind is that so that was about second grade.
Laurel Kassor (36:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (36:10)
and I had a really wild second grade teacher.
Laurel Kassor (36:16)
Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (36:17)
And that I remember that year so much for whatever reason and you know, and she
She w if we talked too much in the cafeteria, she would come we would come back to the classroom and she would make us write I will not talk loudly in the cafeteria five hundred times. yeah. It was yeah,
Laurel Kassor (36:41)
To the extreme. Punishment to the extreme. There it is. That's that, Pluto. Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (36:45)
and it was about voice and it was about it was always about that and about
And at a young age, I was told, I'm too loud, I'm too much, I'm too, you know, all of those kinds of rhetoric and stuff. And that was kind of a way that it was I was being punished. And the whole class was being punished. It wasn't just one person who was loud. It was the whole entire class. We were all in in it together and we were what the fuck? we were
Laurel Kassor (37:16)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (37:17)
just because not everybody was.
loud. I don't even know if I was the one that was loud, but I was being punished by for in the collective sense,
Laurel Kassor (37:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (37:29)
you know. And then she had to take a leave of
Laurel Kassor (37:34)
My God, Pluto's a generational
planet.
Mackenzie Gelina (37:37)
Right. Yes. Absolutely.
Laurel Kassor (37:39)
Y'all were the only
ones of your generation in that class.
Mackenzie Gelina (37:42)
I know yeah.
And the
Laurel Kassor (37:43)
Dead, I'm dead.
Mackenzie Gelina (37:44)
and then the other thing that happened that year was she had to take a leave of absence. I don't know if she was forced to take a leave of absence. I'm not sure.
Laurel Kassor (37:53)
Ha ha ha
Mackenzie Gelina (37:54)
But then we got this long-term substitute teacher, and he was a he was just weird. he was weird. He brought a weird energy. He was weird.
There was also this kid in my class that we called Spider-Man because he would just jump on top of a freaking giant bookshelf and he would you would just look up and he'd be up there. Yes. He was just yeah,
Laurel Kassor (38:14)
I bet he loved parkour and he got to high school.
Mackenzie Gelina (38:20)
he was all over the place and we were what is happening? this this classroom was crazy. It was yeah.
Laurel Kassor (38:26)
Okay, I can already name so many ways this story is is
is unfolding here. So obviously
Mackenzie Gelina (38:32)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (38:33)
the whole generational thing, which is just kind of almost a throwaway there, but that's
Mackenzie Gelina (38:36)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (38:37)
just wild. But okay, so a couple of different things. The punishment.
For sure, cruel and unusual punishment, mass punishment, collective
Mackenzie Gelina (38:42)
Yeah. Right.
Laurel Kassor (38:45)
punishment. It feels very Pluto, a very Plutonian moment. Opposite, almost to the exact degree, you have Pluto and Scorpio in the third, opposite Mercury in Taurus in the ninth. And so this pulls in the access of education. It pulls in the access of voice with the voice planet.
as well. So we are seeing a a theme here where
Pluto in general has a lot to do with burying something, it has a lot to do with hiding, it has a lot to do with being again overpowered, manipulated, corrupted, abused in various ways. It doesn't always mean that it's the most heinous of shit. but if somebody it's power dynamics, right? that's it. It this sounds this teacher was abusing the heckle out of her power. And so
We also are seeing this again in the third house. You said that it wasn't just you, it was the class. It was and also weird weird peer, weird peer. We'll get back to him in a second, but it's just these interesting things around learning, around education that I guess at s in some fashion could have perceived that like, hmm, learning's also dangerous. It's almost giving this like echo. And again, remember, this is
Another fractal on that same moon pattern that opened up. Because you have
Mackenzie Gelina (40:06)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (40:07)
the moon in contact with Pluto, which means at this moment that shit's getting backed up again. And again, what I what's coming through here is again this idea of like, damn, strangers really are kind of scary.
Mackenzie Gelina (40:19)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (40:19)
what's gonna happen with these people? I don't know. It seems every time I'm with people who aren't my family, shit goes wrong here.
Mackenzie Gelina (40:26)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (40:27)
Or things get
Mackenzie Gelina (40:27)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (40:28)
weird, or there's a less protection somehow, or more vulnerability. you've a sense of potentially feeling more vulnerable in in those kinds of situations. So that's another thing that was just coming through, but again, this opposition to Mercury, where it's either we're silent either we annihilate our voice or
which is that Pluto Mercury thing, you know, or, and this was the one that your work clearly has had you on process through your life, or we find a way to stabilize our voice at a consistent in a cons you know, I'm gonna use the word volume, because there was this discussion about being too loud, right? Or how do we find a consistent volume that is agreeable? And there's that opposition because it is about compromises. it is about finding what is the
the lines that we can walk where it feels equal and balanced, where we're not gone overboard and indulgent in our voice, but also we're not not saying anything. So there could be some
Mackenzie Gelina (41:26)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (41:26)
of that coming in. and then of course this Pluto isn't a sextile to your Neptune Saturn conjunction in the fifth house.
Mackenzie Gelina (41:35)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (41:36)
So I can imagine
Chaotic as it might have been, it was good for building some long-term friendships potentially through some of those experiences. this is what makes me think of the little parkour boy, with Neptune being
Mackenzie Gelina (41:46)
Trauma bonding. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (41:49)
a spinning planet. Right? they're this jumping around kind of spirally thing, but also confusing.
You said the word long-term substitute. That to me was
the authority got replaced, which is Saturn conjunct
Mackenzie Gelina (42:01)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (42:02)
Neptune, the substitute. It's something that just flows in, it takes up the space and it takes up the place. So it's there are multiple dimensions, it sounds like, of this energy that was rolling through that period of time. but it it also seems that learning experience in and of itself around the voice is really what stands out. it's
Mackenzie Gelina (42:24)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (42:24)
Almost part of it too is where the moon side of it was like, how the fuck do we get heard? How do f hell do we express
Mackenzie Gelina (42:33)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (42:33)
any of this? We s really can't seem to. This is almost like a little bit of an elevation in the patterning because even though we're still feeling stifled and we can't talk, again, the opposition making it either we are we bury the voice or we
amplify it in some way. but the di part of the difference here that is kind of coming through is that we weren't alone. We were finding that if we weren't alone, it might have been a little bit easier. How does that feel for you? Does that how does that sit?
Mackenzie Gelina (43:05)
Yeah, I I just have like all kinds of memories coming up as you're talking. there was also this one very core memory that I have of one of my best friends, talking about the collective, right? So
Laurel Kassor (43:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (43:21)
I won the spelling Mercury. spelling test or something.
Laurel Kassor (43:24)
Mercury's Of course you did. that there's Saturn.
Mackenzie Gelina (43:28)
Yeah. And so I got to choose the movie that we were gonna watch, right? And I don't know why this is such a core memory, but it probably you'll be able to explain it. The and the choices were
Charlotte's Webb or Jurassic Park?
Laurel Kassor (43:46)
my gosh. Yes. my gosh.
Mackenzie Gelina (43:48)
And my one friend who was one of my best friends, she was I've have watched Jurassic Park and it gave me nightmares. Please do not pick that. And everybody else wanted to watch Jurassic Park.
And I I picked Charlotte's Web
Laurel Kassor (44:06)
First of all, may I just say it's fucking cruel to give the a child the choice between those two how do you how is that all that's in the teacher's lounge? Okay. Second of all, just make the executive decision to make everyone watch Charlotte's Web. Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (44:20)
Right, yeah. And also why would you show eight year olds Jurassic Park? I mean that's
Laurel Kassor (44:24)
Jurassic Park.
Mackenzie Gelina (44:25)
that needs to be a a home decision, I think. you know what I mean?
Laurel Kassor (44:28)
yes. I do. I sure do.
But what is interesting is this fucking Neptune Saturn thing. So what what else is funny is that Neptune Pillar 12, Neptune has the planet Pillar 12, Pillar 12 can have to do with film. Isn't that delightful?
Mackenzie Gelina (44:41)
my gosh.
Laurel Kassor (44:42)
I've not even kidding. When I say this shit is the coding on reality itself, all you have
Mackenzie Gelina (44:47)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (44:48)
to do is learn the frequencies, and then it's literally everywhere. but also I do associate dinosaurs with Saturn.
pattern personally it's bones you know it's
Mackenzie Gelina (44:57)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (44:58)
we we've restructured them out of their bones you know it's old it's archaeology
Mackenzie Gelina (45:01)
Uh-huh.
Laurel Kassor (45:02)
yes but I I think that Neptune brings that cinema quality to
Mackenzie Gelina (45:06)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (45:07)
it which is really fucking interesting but also you made this decision pillar five which is a pillar five topic right fifth house is where that
Is being highlighted again. So it's like even though you won something, which is again also kind of pillar fivey, and there even though you
Mackenzie Gelina (45:23)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (45:23)
won in the competition, it puts you in a deadly situation, which is the Pluto
Mackenzie Gelina (45:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (45:29)
Right? it puts you in this fucking deadly situation
Mackenzie Gelina (45:31)
no.
Laurel Kassor (45:33)
where the where you had to make this choice
Which is another pillar fucking five thing, but it affected the whole class, which is a three thing, but also these are outer planets that are involved. So bringing in even more of this like collective undertone to it and then
Mackenzie Gelina (45:48)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (45:48)
the balancing.
Ugh, it's man, now if I'm good at shit I might fuck up too. You know, there's almost this undertone where it's again, you didn't know
Mackenzie Gelina (45:54)
Right. Yeah. my.
Laurel Kassor (45:56)
the rule. There again there's this rule thing where it's wait, I thought I was supposed to do good. Now I'm putting
Mackenzie Gelina (46:02)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (46:02)
an imp an impossible decision, you know?
And I w also wanted to mention nightmares. Neptune. Hello. We got more into this Nep dreams, dreams, right? Scary dreams.
Mackenzie Gelina (46:12)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (46:12)
Pluto to Neptune. Even if it is just cinema, j just because things are in a finger quotes easy relationship, a sextile, doesn't mean every experience from them is delightful. You know, it's it's still
Mackenzie Gelina (46:25)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (46:26)
a this is you know, it's
Still has a kind of stimulating quality around dreams, but death energy attached. So it's like, okay, what's a pleasant way for for Pluto to show up with Neptune and Saturn? Fucking Jurassic Park is actually a pretty
Mackenzie Gelina (46:42)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (46:42)
pleasant way, all things considered. You know what I mean? So that's like really
Mackenzie Gelina (46:47)
La
Laurel Kassor (46:48)
funny. but also the more serious aspect of that is that you were put in a situation where you
learned something about I can really it doesn't matter sometimes. I can still fuck up almost. Yeah. Hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (47:05)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
And do I protect the one person or do I protect or do I go with the collective, you know, that they that was that's a big thing part of it, right?
Laurel Kassor (47:20)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (47:21)
Is it's do I go with what the the twelve other students are saying? They're No, choose Jurassic Park, choose Jurassic Park, and then
protecting my one friend who is more sensitive, right? And I
Laurel Kassor (47:33)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (47:35)
was just I wa but and I still don't think I've ever watched Jurassic Park.
Laurel Kassor (47:42)
well I think that it's a great movie and you should enjoy
Mackenzie Gelina (47:43)
Isn't that funny? Like I I've seen enough. I know I've seen
so much of it that I like know what 'cause y I've seen clips obviously for my entire
Laurel Kassor (47:53)
Of course.
Mackenzie Gelina (47:54)
life. But I like yeah, I know what happened, but I don't think I've ever even watched them.
Laurel Kassor (47:59)
That's funny. That is funny. Ugh.
Mackenzie Gelina (48:01)
Not for
that reason, but I always will associate Jurassic Park with that moment in my life.
Laurel Kassor (48:06)
I mean,
how could you not? that again, it's one of those really
Mackenzie Gelina (48:08)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (48:10)
formative things. Now, obviously you
Mackenzie Gelina (48:12)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (48:13)
laid out that whole period for us, you laid it out the year span.
Mackenzie Gelina (48:17)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (48:17)
So it's interesting to hear that it's
You know, I don't claim to know every fucking thing. I just know shit works and I'm exploring it. You know? Right? I'm
Mackenzie Gelina (48:22)
Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely.
Laurel Kassor (48:26)
this is working obviously, so let's keep going. So I don't know how it all works, but it's it's
Mackenzie Gelina (48:28)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (48:29)
clear that what you just described, that even that one specific instant inside of that year.
Mackenzie Gelina (48:34)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (48:35)
resonated across scale. And that is one of the things that I do believe about astrology is that it's kind of always resonating at scale. a great example is transits in our life. Like when you ha when the collective is going through a big transit, it's gonna scale down to meet you as
well, So anyway, I just thought that was interesting.
But yeah, super cool, super interesting. I'm excited to see where that takes us into the next set of years, which all kind of clump up together the next three formative moments and planets.
meet. but we are gonna start with Uranus in Capricorn, which is in your fifth house, and then not too far away from that, a few years later will be Neptune and Saturn moment. So your Uranus looks it hang about 16
this is in your fifth house, so this has something to do with identity, performance, friends.
Hobby sports even, but something around this identity building shit. This is Uranus, so this would be an unexpected usually, or it could be unexpected, it could be shocking, it could be surprising. it could also be very enlightening is another way. It could be very liberating also could be a a way, but it's in Capricorn,
Mackenzie Gelina (49:59)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (49:59)
so this has something to do with authority and the systems. rule.
Again, this seems this would be a period of time where rules would become very focused because this would be the when part of the Capricorn consciousness is online. this is the first time also, by the way, and I'm so I'm doubling down on this identity choice decision-making thing, because this is also the first time your son will have been aspected by any of the other planets.
Mackenzie Gelina (50:26)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (50:26)
in the chart.
so your son at 29 Aries i
Mackenzie Gelina (50:28)
So interesting.
Laurel Kassor (50:29)
is to me s still bright enough to catch that five degree Uranus beam.
Mackenzie Gelina (50:35)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (50:37)
there, but definitely a trying to your Taurus planets. There's could be relationships involved. This could be physical touch stuff involved as well. The Ceres in Taurus there could be even some
food stuff involved with Ceres in Taurus
Mackenzie Gelina (50:53)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (50:54)
yeah, Jupiter comes online, so maybe beliefs, maybe religion, maybe learning. Yeah. A lot of different things kind of were happening around this time. S Chiron as well. So we're
Mackenzie Gelina (51:05)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (51:06)
realizing there's something to fix around belonging.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:09)
I
that's interesting. I had okay. I'll just I'll just start and you can fill help me fill in the pieces
Laurel Kassor (51:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:17)
in between. The I when I was about w I was a freshman, so I was fourteen, fifteen,
Laurel Kassor (51:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:24)
I had an abusive boyfriend.
Laurel Kassor (51:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:28)
And so that was
nine months I think of seven to nine nine months I think of my freshman year. who I met through sports.
Laurel Kassor (51:39)
yep. That explains that y I saw your eyes light up when I said sports, yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:44)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I feel that my freshman year was the moment that I realized I was desirable.
Laurel Kassor (51:54)
Mm, mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (51:54)
by other people, you know,
by boys, you know. Yeah, yeah. It was middle school, I did not feel that. Yeah. Yeah. And
Laurel Kassor (51:57)
You're being perceived. Yeah. It's Uranus, so of course it's perception. Yeah. Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (52:05)
I did not feel that in middle school. I was
I was I wasn't that wasn't online for me at that point.
Laurel Kassor (52:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (52:13)
But then when I right when I stepped into high school or even the summer before I stepped into high school
I was just like, what? Like I was like, what is hap like Okay, you know? yeah, so that kind that is kind of interesting. But then after that boyfriend, I was just kind of like, I don't
I think I might have withdrawn a little bit from everything because I was just this can be really dangerous. this is not, you know, good. And it was there was some really intense things that happened with that. you said physical touch. physical touch for me, but also okay, this is this is an intense thing. Just trigger warning for people. He
Carved my name in his arm.
Laurel Kassor (53:02)
Ooh. Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (53:04)
So you know,
in his forearm, like big
Laurel Kassor (53:07)
Mm, mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (53:09)
and it's scarred, you know, so that's there now.
Laurel Kassor (53:13)
That
is a really interesting twist on the
Mackenzie Gelina (53:18)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (53:18)
pillar two Ceres Taurus second house thing of permanence, of permanence.
Mackenzie Gelina (53:23)
Interesting. Yeah. It was a kind of ownership.
Laurel Kassor (53:27)
yes, really fascinating. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.
Mackenzie Gelina (53:31)
Right. And
it was yeah, the ownership quality of the thing where I was just like, what?
Laurel Kassor (53:36)
It's like being branded. Yeah. And it's also aesthetic too. what
an fucking fascinating and it's your Aries Sun too. Knives, blood, carvings. Yeah. Yeah, of course he did, bro.
Mackenzie Gelina (53:47)
Right. But also you said films. You said films. He got that from a movie. He got the idea
from a movie. And I was just what?
Laurel Kassor (53:58)
H the fuck? Wow.
Mackenzie Gelina (54:00)
This is about this possessive boyfriend who did that with his girlfriend, you know?
Laurel Kassor (54:07)
Wow,
you know what's also very interesting about how that lands in your chart is that your your descendant. So the part of the chart that an angle, it's the opposite of the ascendant. It if the ascendant is the impact we make and how we move and punch our way through the world, then the descendant
Mackenzie Gelina (54:22)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (54:23)
is the equal but opposite what we are at attracting back or polarizing back to us and it begins the seventh house, which has to do with relationships and reflections. And so I've been holding my my tone.
about mirrors. You said the mat's a mirror earlier. I got this whole I got this whole thing about mirrors. I got this whole thing about mirrors. Dude,
Mackenzie Gelina (54:38)
Yeah. I cannot wait.
Laurel Kassor (54:43)
I'm a mirror But this DC energy is Aquarius for you. Aquarius belongs to Pillar 11.
So does Uranus, which is the moment we're talking about. we're zoomed in onto this Uranus moment.
Mackenzie Gelina (54:56)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (54:57)
So of course, this first boyfriend, the one of the fifth house things is is courtship and dating because it is about decision making. So again, the we're we're etched our way back to decision making and huh, how do I make decisions? Hmm, hmm, hmm. Because a lot of the times who we choose to date is very informative about what kind of decisions we're making and what they attract back to us.
Mackenzie Gelina (55:19)
Absolutely.
Laurel Kassor (55:20)
And so you had also mentioned the word withdraw earlier. Your Uranus in Capricorn is opposite closely opposite your Chiron in Cancer. Your Chiron is the planet of this pillar six refinement.
stuff. So Kyrie
Mackenzie Gelina (55:43)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (55:43)
has a lot to do with belonging and acceptance and safety, emotional safety, which is again this echo back to some moon stuff, some pillar four stuff with
Mackenzie Gelina (55:55)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (55:55)
moon, cancer, fourth house, and the
Mackenzie Gelina (55:58)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (55:59)
opening square.
but so there's this echo back where Uranus is I'm gonna disrupt the way you express yourself.
And you're because there's this element, I mean not because, but reflected is this element of relationships that get pulled into the disruption. So it's boom, you're
Mackenzie Gelina (56:16)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (56:16)
desirable. Also, Uranus is making yeah, go get him, tiger, kind of connections
Mackenzie Gelina (56:21)
Right, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (56:22)
to Venus, the ro to the planet of this.
Pillar seven area that is associated with Uranus, directly connected. So it's fuck yeah, relationships, let's lock in. So that got pulled in. And then Ceres, which brings this physicality and this concreteness to the ability to attract, which side note
would give me the inclination that you are quite a powerful manifestor, in so much that the capability to attract Venus and the capability to anchor Ceres has likely by this point in the timeline, has
likely been refined.
a bit. and that to me s I would think s so based on
Mackenzie Gelina (57:03)
Yes. A lot. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (57:07)
some of these experiences you were telling us about, which force you to be huh, my decisions really do have such a big impact on my life and my ability
Mackenzie Gelina (57:16)
So much.
Laurel Kassor (57:17)
to express myself. And so this has changed
Mackenzie Gelina (57:19)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (57:20)
the way that you express yourself,
I'm sure, in many ways. But back to
Mackenzie Gelina (57:23)
yeah.
Laurel Kassor (57:23)
that opposition to Chiron there, this also was either it was kind of giving one of those
All or nothings, all or
Mackenzie Gelina (57:31)
Hm.
Laurel Kassor (57:32)
I mean we need to compromise between spontaneity and excitement and liberation and pr self-protection, the skills of self-protection. Cause there may have been a lot of new opportunities to have fun with people that previously were
Wait, aren't other people kinda dangerous? Especially if we don't know them that much. ugh. And so that
Mackenzie Gelina (57:55)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (57:56)
might have been part of what was going on then too.
Mackenzie Gelina (57:59)
Yeah, because I I after that relationship, the thing that I'm thinking about is there were people that were Hey, do you wanna you know, they're interested in dating me, but I would only let them get so close and then I would be Okay, bye. And then just
Laurel Kassor (58:14)
Mm. Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (58:16)
I you know, and so it was we would we would talk on AIM.
you know, our, you know,
Laurel Kassor (58:23)
course.
Mackenzie Gelina (58:24)
messenger and stuff, and I would chat with them and I would them and we would talk in school and in between classes or at sports or something that. And then I was just Okay, that's it. Cause I'm safe. I'm gonna be safe. I'm not gonna be I'm not gonna put myself in a position. Yeah, Aquarius, right? So yeah.
Laurel Kassor (58:37)
Yep. Detachment becomes a safety skill.
that's that opposition in action functioning through, you know,
Mackenzie Gelina (58:50)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (58:50)
a teenager's brain who is like gotta learn how to adjust some of this energy. But
Mackenzie Gelina (58:52)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (58:56)
yeah, it's Uranus, that's p a pillar eleven, a lot of the detachment stuff happens.
Mackenzie Gelina (59:01)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (59:01)
there. It's kind
of the the lower echelon of some of that energy. But we have Chiron in the 11th house making an aspect to Uranus. So we got a little
Mackenzie Gelina (59:11)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (59:12)
bit of a build-up of that awakening theme or that pillar I call it the awakening
Mackenzie Gelina (59:16)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (59:17)
pillar, but detachment is part of it. cancer as an energy itself, just as an expression is avoidant. No offense, any
Mackenzie Gelina (59:24)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (59:25)
strong cancer people, but that is it's sidestep.
It literally will
Mackenzie Gelina (59:29)
yeah.
Laurel Kassor (59:30)
will be like, I don't want to no, I'm gonna protect myself by avoiding.
Mackenzie Gelina (59:32)
Just gonna Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (59:34)
Right? So there's that. but of course, other experiences later challenge these. That's why transits ended up like
Mackenzie Gelina (59:41)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (59:41)
really challenging some of this,
these beliefs that we incorporate. And also, speaking of beliefs, this is when the waxing quinks from Jupiter.
comes online and so our beliefs about how we connect to
Mackenzie Gelina (59:55)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (59:55)
self-expression and how we are in charge of that in some way we're also coming online.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:00:04)
And that's actually
when I started learning about astrology too.
Laurel Kassor (1:00:09)
Okay, that is exactly the kind of thing I would exp I'd be un be unsurprised about during a transit that. Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:00:15)
Yeah. Yeah. Fifteen or sixteen. Fifteen or
sixteen I was reading my horoscope and and I was and I would do it without telling anybody because no everybody thought I was crazy. Well,
Laurel Kassor (1:00:28)
'Cause your voice is dangerous. Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:00:31)
yeah, also that. But I w if I mentioned it to somebody, they'd be You know that's doesn't work or something that. I was It resonates though.
and it was all sun sign astrology at that point, but
Laurel Kassor (1:00:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:00:41)
it I was just kind of 'cause it was in the back of the newspaper, you know, I
Laurel Kassor (1:00:45)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:00:45)
would sneak to the back of the newspaper and look it up and be yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:00:48)
Hidden information. Pluto in the third house. Hidden learning. Hello. yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big one there.
But this is also, again, that Jupiter came online too. So part of our worldview started to open up too. Like shattered bit
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:00)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:01)
shattered the worldview. And it was one of the interesting things about Uranian moments, it seems, is like they do open up a multifractal.
quality.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:09)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:10)
but the low hanging fruits chaos. it can be very disruptive.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:13)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:14)
or again, liberating. I know I said that earlier, but I think that's part of why astrology it's all of it's a study of perspective.
and interpretation. And so it's this combination of studying perspective opened up, of resonance opened up, then, but it also had this figure it out quality, which means hmm, other people seem to think this isn't practical. Hmm, I better hide
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:39)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:40)
some of this stuff, you know. I gotta figure it out. How do I wanna incorporate it, right, into my own expression?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:46)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:47)
So there were a lot of
plot points that were opening up around identity, it sounds like, around this
Mackenzie Gelina (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:01:53)
time strongly. and then more continued, it would seem, around
I mean seventeen. It looks a a really pretty rock solid sixteen, seventeen. this is when you're
Mackenzie Gelina (1:02:04)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:02:04)
then Neptune and Saturn would have come online. So just a few years later, in the this whole thing would have been kind of a roll rolling from one to the next But
Mackenzie Gelina (1:02:13)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:02:13)
this is way gonna be f more focused about things being confusing, rules. There could be loss, there could be grief. part of this is when we're hitting the
Mackenzie Gelina (1:02:22)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:02:23)
Neptune time.
this is still in kind of that high school expression: finding yourself making decisions. What kind of decisions are we making? This could also, so that could be more dating stuff as well. let's see, this is activating the
moon. So this could be mom stuff again.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:02:39)
know sixteen or seventeen.
I think that's okay. I'm I'm trying to think about what was happening. I know that that was when I was s kind of solidifying that I was gonna go to art school, which was
Laurel Kassor (1:02:52)
Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:02:53)
different than 'cause I came f I was in a very, very small town that was agriculture focused. and you're like, Yep.
Laurel Kassor (1:03:03)
I'm keep talking, keep talking, yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:03:06)
But I think it
What I found really interesting about that part was that I was really praised for a very long time about my skill in art. But then by when I got accepted to literally one of the best art schools in the country, everybody was like, What are you gonna do with that? That feels a stupid reason, you know, why would you do that?
That's not practical. why would you go? You know, and it wasn't everybody, but those voices are always the loudest.
Laurel Kassor (1:03:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:03:41)
And so I was very confused. I was very wait, you guys have praised me for this. like you're at my art show right now,
Laurel Kassor (1:03:53)
The rules of success changed.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:03:55)
yeah. And I was just you're at
the senior art show or whatever, right? Whatever it was. And you have praised me, and I have gotten so many awards. I've gotten so much, you know, I've been in competitions, I've gotten awards, I've done my different shows and all of this stuff. You have praised me so much. And then I literally
get into something that you just don't understand.
You don't understand or value, and now you're telling me that it's wrong. Right? And I'm just what? what is that about? I was just I I thought this was good. And
Laurel Kassor (1:04:34)
Yeah, it's devastating.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:04:36)
yeah. And the other thing was that that's coming up because sports and art were a big, big themes in my life at that
Laurel Kassor (1:04:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:04:44)
point.
And I played basketball and I decided when I was sixteen that I was getting bullied on the team. And I told the coach who was like a second dad to me and I you know and I trusted and and felt safe with him and he's like, I can't do anything about it.
And so I didn't go back when I was 17 to play in my senior year because I was like, I'm not willing to be bullied to play basketball on this team. Mm-hmm. And then
Laurel Kassor (1:05:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sacrifice. There it is. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. my gosh. Wow.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:17)
you know, and I remember there were other girls on the team that were feeling there were there was at least one other girl on the team that was feeling that way.
And I remember it was the first day of tryouts and I didn't show up. And I literally had been playing basketball
since I was five or six, you know? it was Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:05:35)
gosh, stop it. This is
s the completion. my god, you're gonna this period of time we're talking
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:39)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Laurel Kassor (1:05:42)
about, it's the other side of the moon thing. So yeah, it's the other side of the square
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:45)
Yeah, that's wild.
Laurel Kassor (1:05:48)
to the moon. That
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:50)
my god.
Laurel Kassor (1:05:51)
yes, which again happened shortly before your fifth birthday. Okay, so it's
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:56)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:05:56)
inside that span.
of happenings
Mackenzie Gelina (1:05:59)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:00)
and so this was a denial
To not being fucking taken care of the right way, which is a response to
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:05)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:06)
the initial formative memory of feeling helpless because I was just at the whim of whoever was supposed to be in charge of me. This, you denying going back said, no, not on not on my fucking terms, bitch. And basically walked away, right?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:21)
No, I'm not gonna do it.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:22)
and so I know I simplified the fuck out of that, but but that's what I
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:25)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:26)
heard when you said it. I was my god, you really did fucking complete the circuit.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:28)
That's exactly what it was.
my gosh. That's so wild.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:31)
Which is so cool. Super cool. So there are a million other things in that
too.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:36)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:06:37)
the bullying is the Pluto come the Pluto coming in and you but standing up for yourself. So again, it's how does Pluto interact with these two energies in a way that objectively you're like, good for you, Pluto.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:06:48)
Right.
and it's interesting that I withdrew. I just was like, No, I don't I'm gonna
Laurel Kassor (1:06:51)
Mm-hmm. that's
what Chiron in Cancer says. How do we deal with a problem? Well, we're gonna withdraw. I am n abstaining. And also
Mackenzie Gelina (1:07:01)
Yeah yes.
Laurel Kassor (1:07:04)
that's pu that's on the Saturn stuff too. there's a mixture,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:07:07)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:07:08)
it's because Pillar Four is meeting Pillar 10 is really like what it is. We're seeing
Mackenzie Gelina (1:07:11)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:07:12)
moon cancer, fourth house stuff, which is pillar four, the support pillar conflict.
And have to work it out with the authority pillar, which limits and restricts and denies, right? And they can both play cold shoulder really well. Right. So I think I think that that's there's a mixture
Mackenzie Gelina (1:07:27)
Okay. yeah. I can.
Laurel Kassor (1:07:33)
of these different th thematics, meeting and kissing
Mackenzie Gelina (1:07:36)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:07:37)
in various ways.
it's almost a hard to track through or so many. Every word you said out of your mouth was related to these energies. But what really stood out with to me as you were speaking, or what's really popping up back again now, is that you said you decided you were being bullied, which I just again want to really underline what a massive theme that has been in your entire life to validate your own ability to make decisions. Too we've we've seen that be a through.
line and you used your voice to stand up. But what but what's interesting is that we see that's not the end of the story because although we solved a moon connection, we didn't solve everything
in that moment and in that time. But what
what we did do was use the voice where we may have not had previously and then back
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:27)
yeah, for sure.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:28)
it up with our body. So that as actually gonna fly us forward
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:31)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:32)
to land this plane a little bit into the work you're doing now. I mean I I had you tell us a little bit about it at the top, but I want us reorient
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:37)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:38)
into how that relates since you haven't hit
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:41)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:42)
you're not old enough to have hit some of these other planets that come up in your chart. They don't show up until about
mid-40s-ish,
to that's when you'll hit a sun moment. But it's super interesting
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:53)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:54)
that you did use your voice where you didn't before. And
Mackenzie Gelina (1:08:57)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:08:58)
that you did with draw, but on principles, it was on your again, your choice to keep yourself safe because you went to someone else and they couldn't. And that had been a through line too, you know?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:09:11)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:09:13)
So that
Mackenzie Gelina (1:09:14)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:09:14)
is super duper interesting.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:09:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:09:19)
yeah, yeah. Does anything come up for you as I say that some of that?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:09:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think
what you're saying about keeping myself safe, that's kind of standing out to me is because I think there was this moment, you know, and it's kind of this post high school kind of thing or when you're nearing the end of high school, you're no longer in the structure anymore, you know, of everything. Post high school clarity. Yeah, exactly.
Laurel Kassor (1:09:44)
Post high school clarity.
Ha ha ha.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:09:51)
But but you know, just this feeling of yeah, this is I need to keep me safe. I need I have decisions to make now, right? you decide to go to college, you decide not to go to college, you go you decide to be, you know, go out of the structure however you want to, right? You know, leave leave that high school structure however you want to. And
Or sometimes you're just
in a situation that of you know, where you maybe don't have a choice, but I had a choice, right? I had
Laurel Kassor (1:10:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:10:21)
I had choices and and I think I had to really individuate at that moment in time.
Laurel Kassor (1:10:27)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:10:28)
you know, in sixteen and seventeen because because I was the art kid, right? In a in a school full of farmers, right? Future farmers of America, right? You know, and I'm just that's that's cool, guys.
Laurel Kassor (1:10:40)
Yes, yes. it's also on that square to the moon,
too, is accepting the moon and Libra, right? it's a square to your
Mackenzie Gelina (1:10:49)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:10:50)
moon and Libra. And c correct me if I'm wrong, my hunch is part of the art that you would have enjoyed or maybe naturally gravitated towards might have had to do with clay, or sculpting or something.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:11:01)
A l a little bit, but I was more fine arts at that point, more drawing and painting
Laurel Kassor (1:11:06)
Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:11:06)
and stuff that. Yeah. I I tried to do clay.
Laurel Kassor (1:11:10)
Uh-huh.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:11:14)
my if like my my ceramics teacher was just like, you're really trying. you know, I had a really hard time actually. Sculpture makes more sense in my brain.
Throwing on a wheel is very fun to me. I don't understand how the chemical reaction that happens between the water, the earth and the fire. I was just I have no freaking clue. Cause every time my timing was always off. for
clay, right? But the thing that I think I liked about fine art is you can pick up a drawing that you started five years ago.
Right, and you
Laurel Kassor (1:11:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:11:53)
know, kind of get into that again. But but yeah, I tried clay and it was very humbling because at that point I was already at top of my class in fine arts. And so people knew me for my artistic ability, right?
Laurel Kassor (1:12:11)
I have such an interesting like thing popping
through here about
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:15)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:15)
how fine arts has rules and clear, very clear, this is good and this is bad, and very clear this is what's right and this is what's
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:18)
yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:26)
wrong, and very clear structure and
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:30)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:30)
again,
this timeless thing, but it's funny because I was I bet you do clay because Ceres and Taurus, conjunct Venus
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:39)
yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:39)
in Taurus is like I mean, you know, you do the textile. So obviously we already covered it might not be clay,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:44)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:45)
but we're doing something with physical fibers and stuff.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:48)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:49)
but it's funny that the spinning on the wheel doesn't make sense to us or we're having a hard time relating to that but it's fun.
Cause there is the Saturn
Mackenzie Gelina (1:12:56)
It's fun. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:12:57)
Neptune conjunction in the fifth house of fun, where it's like, rules, who need rule schmools, let's just have some fun. But then it's square
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:05)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:06)
the moon, which is but I cannot accept that. The artist in me,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:08)
Ha ha ha.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:10)
the artist in me says, no, we have to structure it successfully.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:13)
It's so funny.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:15)
And so, what keeps coming through is almost this invitation, Aries Sun.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:19)
Yeah.
Yep.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:21)
by the way, Aries Sun I know that I meant to say it way earlier, but you invite women back to the finding their voice.
invite people
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:27)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:28)
into these alternative spaces. There's Aries is an invitation essence. It is the beginning, it is the bang, it is
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:33)
I love that.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:34)
the start, it is the welcome. Okay.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:36)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:37)
And so it's I would love to invite you to look at clay. Not that you've got a life and you got you got social shit going on. But if you ever decided that you wanted to like sculpt or something again, like look at it as almost
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:47)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:47)
a carry on off of these unfinished parts of this aspect of how do
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:51)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:52)
I gain control?
over surrendering to my creative processes and accepting
Mackenzie Gelina (1:13:57)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:13:58)
that accepting being out of control. It's almost a way to touch back into some
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:02)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:14:02)
of those lunar, those early formative energies there. Cause again, this
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:06)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:14:07)
aspect isn't fully lived through
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:10)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:14:11)
all the way. It's gonna touch Mercury
Mercury's making a very demonstrative, expressive come let me tell you. Come learn from
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:19)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:14:19)
me all these things I have learnt figured out and found out. But yeah, there's just was something
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:24)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:14:24)
interesting about arts and clay and their being
I guess the word would be opportunity inside of it together Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:14:32)
Yeah. That's
in it's interesting that this that's not the cycle is not complete there because you know, when I went to art school afterward, it was such a high standard. And I ended up staying there for five and a half years instead of four because I changed my major in the middle. And that I came out and I was just like, I cannot make
anything unless it's perfect.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:01)
Mm
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:04)
Right? Yeah. So I was just like, if it is not a masterpiece that is coming out of my body, then it does not deserve to be in the world.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:13)
Okay,
and there's the body. The bodies part specifically is
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:16)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:17)
pillar two. It's Taurin, it's Ceres. Yes,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:19)
Yeah. Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:21)
and we have Ceres again in Taurus, which is gonna amplify everybody who's in Taurus and everyone's expression.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:26)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:27)
I forgot to mention it earlier because I was I got flooded with the amazing connections.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:31)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:32)
But again, you did everything right. You did what you were told, you followed the rules set in place for you, and then you found out that that's unacceptable or that's dangerous or that's not practical,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:43)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:44)
finding out you got accepted to art school and it still didn't measure up somehow. And it's still like, what?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:48)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:49)
That was square to the moon.
when that
Mackenzie Gelina (1:15:50)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:15:51)
happened there, which is then also educating you further on like, all right, we gotta really construct these pathways, these plans where we can
Mackenzie Gelina (1:16:03)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:16:04)
be successful. We can almost redefine or construct for ourselves how we relate to success. Because clearly, again, we missed the mark somehow. we were not informed
Mackenzie Gelina (1:16:14)
Right.
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:16:15)
And
again, this goes back to the voice and information thing because again, those are gonna pillar three, the echo pillar, Mercury, Gemini, the third house, the waxing
Mackenzie Gelina (1:16:26)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:16:26)
sextile they're all connected to both information,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:16:29)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:16:30)
data, and voice and the exchange of said information and data. So to close kind of this story aspecting here out of this, I know that you've gone through
so many other formative events too that are not limited to the ones that we
Mackenzie Gelina (1:16:46)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:16:47)
named right here. are there any of those that you would to to talk about or to share with us in hindsight of how those these formative lessons from the teens that we just covered and I guess the earlier childhood too relate to how that how you transmuted these early lessons into the work that you do?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:17:07)
over you know, I'm always looking at patterns and everything because that's my work. but
Laurel Kassor (1:17:12)
A.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:17:13)
I think, yeah, we know. so
Laurel Kassor (1:17:15)
Ha ha
Mackenzie Gelina (1:17:17)
but one of one of the major themes over my childhood, especially, you know, including these things and was this life and death aspect, right?
Because in one of the things we didn't mention what you know, obviously that first experience with the falling off the boat and stuff, but my dad also was worked for taxidermists.
You know? And so
Laurel Kassor (1:17:47)
Well how about that?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:17:48)
yeah. he was a woodworker and he would create the panels and stuff behind the taxidermy deerheads or bases and cases and
Laurel Kassor (1:17:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:17:58)
stuff that. And I would at a very young age go deliver them with him to the back
Laurel Kassor (1:18:05)
Whoa.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:18:06)
rooms.
where there were animal skins hanging off of these forms and stuff, right? Which, you know, and I always say formaldehyde was a huge scent of my childhood. You know, like I
Laurel Kassor (1:18:21)
That's a f interesting sentence to be able to say.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:18:25)
know. Yeah, I know the smell of formaldehyde so well, you know? And
Laurel Kassor (1:18:30)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:18:32)
But I would go with him because he was also my if my mom was working, he worked at home, you know, so he was my childcare too. So
Laurel Kassor (1:18:41)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:18:42)
I would just hop in the car with him, help him deliver stuff. I had a there was a stuffed pheasant.
That was in his shop and I loved her. I would go and pet her every day and I was like, Yeah,
she's so cute. And I would pet her There was a lot of hunting culture and appreciation of nature and animals. Cause it wasn't just about trophy hunting for my dad. It was about survival, you know? And so
Laurel Kassor (1:19:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:10)
he had rules.
Which I loved, around hunting and he was just like, You do not take something that you will not eat. Right?
Laurel Kassor (1:19:22)
Do you remember
what I said earlier? I was like, it seems like food could have been a really important part of life for you.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:25)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:26)
Yes. And and I have to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:27)
Food is a huge part of my life.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:28)
you have a 29 degree Aries sun bumped up with very strong
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:33)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:34)
Ceres energy
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:36)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:36)
in Taurus. So it really is a surv survival nature quality. And the sun
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:40)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:41)
does represent father. it it does represent father. And Aries represents a life. Literally, to be alive
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:44)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:48)
or to be unalive.
alive in a lot of ways
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:50)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:50)
too. the l the la the last the lack of life is unlife. It's non-life. Right. And so working with the taxidermied animals too at the most extreme point
Mackenzie Gelina (1:19:59)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:19:59)
where it's like here is the thing that used to be alive if in a physical way.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:20:03)
Yeah.
and he was he was older than my mom. So
Laurel Kassor (1:20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:20:10)
he was like twenty some years older than my mom.
Laurel Kassor (1:20:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:20:14)
So my first set of grandparents died when I was four. You know, four was like one of the I know. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:20:21)
And there's Pluto getting that activation again from that same fucking age, dude. yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:20:26)
And then
And probably around eight too. You know, eight to ten, eleven, maybe was when my grandma died. And yeah. anyway, all of that to say, I've been really connected to life cycles. And there were in seasonal cycles because
There was hunting season and there was not hunting season. And it's
Laurel Kassor (1:20:48)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:20:48)
if it's not hunting season, then it's gardening season. and we always had a garden. and my neighbor next door to me this is always a funny story. So when we moved when we moved over
to that childhood home, which was after I was five, I think. also that's when I started seeing ghosts for the first time. So so
Laurel Kassor (1:21:11)
Dude, I'm telling you, that
that four and a half, little window, bro,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:15)
There's a lot.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:17)
it lit up so many different parts of the chart at once. That's wild. I'm losing my shit about the cycles thing,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:24)
'cause that's a huge piece of what gave it away to me that Ceres actually had
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:27)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:27)
to do with Pillar Two stuff when I was
Working my when I was working out my system was just the cylical nature of Ta of Ceres and her
her
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:35)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:35)
in her mythology, we didn't have
seasons until her myth occurred when she had to go up with Hades
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:42)
wild.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:43)
and negotiate half of the year for her daughter, right? And that's how we got that's how this season. So
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:48)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:49)
she is tied into the natural rhythms and life cycles of nature, which is why when you were like seasonal astrology and I was like, dude, wait till we get into Ceres a little bit.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:21:57)
Right, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:21:59)
and then we never ended up working our way deeply because there was so much other stuff that we were covering, but
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:02)
Hm.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:03)
this being tied into your
Sun and being into well there's life and death seasons right from the
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:07)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:08)
from the get and that we we live off of the land and we and we even
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:12)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:12)
take the bodies we make money off of those things too and we learn with the
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:15)
Yep, mm-hmm. Yep.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:17)
whole livelihood tied up into and again Ceres Taurus this pillar two thing
And Venus is inside of this too. So she has to do with this relationship
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:26)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:28)
between it all, the literal
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:30)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:30)
connection material, the literal bond, the literal obligations and promises that are made between you, Airy Sun, 29 degrees, and this this nature element that you find yourself existing and being
alive within. So there's a lot about the cylical nature. And now to hear that part of the early openings.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:51)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:22:52)
phases had to do with the kind of some of the the loss factors, which I mean we kind of we're already touching on there was life and death stuff, there was confusing
Mackenzie Gelina (1:22:59)
Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:23:01)
Mercury channelies stuff, Neptune
Mackenzie Gelina (1:23:03)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:23:04)
channely stuff. there was that stuff there, but it's just really fucking interesting that you've been traveling this space for a long time and some of
Mackenzie Gelina (1:23:12)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:23:12)
the themes we
did pull out were about making decisions, having to make the decisions about yourself and how do you communicate and express
Mackenzie Gelina (1:23:21)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:23:22)
inside of these cyclical spaces,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:23:26)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:23:27)
I guess we could say.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:23:29)
Yeah. It's a it's been huge and I feel like, you know, every time there was some kind of challenge, there's a death cycle, right? that's how I think about it, Is I'm just like, okay, we have a challenge, we have a death cycle, we have a we have a rebirth cycle after that, right? And then there's another challenge, and that's kind of
what shamanic healing really
how that ties into everything because it's shamanic healing is just very this is the truth.
You get to decide what you do with that. Right?
Laurel Kassor (1:24:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:24:03)
I'm not, I'm not going in dictating how you receive the information. I'm just getting the information.
I have always said, because I've had people that have not told me things before because they know it's gonna hurt me. And I'm I would rather be hurt by the truth than be have the wool pulled over my eyes about.
what's actually happening.
Laurel Kassor (1:24:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:24:27)
give me the truth.
Laurel Kassor (1:24:29)
Well, 'cause otherwise that changes
the rules of engagement and that's a thing we don't like.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:24:32)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And I'm just like, just tell me what it is. I can handle it, right? Whether that is you know, somebody is dying. And yeah, people die. Right? animals die. People die. tell me that that's what's happening. So I can have authority to make us decisions around it. You know?
cause otherwise you take away my choice of how I wanna interact with it, if somebody's
Laurel Kassor (1:25:00)
Uh-huh.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:25:01)
I'm thinking about, you know, because right now I live across the country from my family, And I have angrily, you know, not angrily, but just like demanded, tell me if my last grandmother is close
to dying.
So that I can make a decision and I can come home and see her.
Laurel Kassor (1:25:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:25:18)
and I'm just like, please tell me, you know, because
Laurel Kassor (1:25:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:25:22)
I wanna have choice in this natural thing that is happening,
I wanna have agency here. I wanna have choice. I wanna be able to be okay, I am gonna go or I'm not gonna go or whatever. But if you wait and you don't tell me and then you act everything's fine.
it's deceiving, I think, you know.
Laurel Kassor (1:25:41)
Yeah, I d you're
I totally we didn't really talk about your Mars at all. It just it didn't it didn't come up because it wasn't
Mackenzie Gelina (1:25:49)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:25:50)
activated by any of those earlier planets yet. but your Mars is in Gemini in the
Mackenzie Gelina (1:25:56)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:25:56)
tenth house of authority.
So again, this is a loud a louder on the authority pillar. It it
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:02)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:03)
gives instructions to your Sun in Aries. So your son is making decisions based on the information it receives from Mars. Mars is in Gemini, and all it wants is information. All it wants to
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:16)
That's it.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:17)
do is pursue information. And it's really important to note that part of the shamanic,
energy around the chart is this Mars it is in a a aspect to your fourth house it's in an aspect to your IC itself.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:37)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:39)
Mars
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:39)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:39)
does make a connection, and it is a pillar eight, Pluto, Scorpio, Eighth House, undertone, alchemical, shamanic
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:48)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:49)
quality. I would associate shamanism and transformation and the excavation and the healing and the catharsis of
Mackenzie Gelina (1:26:58)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:26:59)
those variables.
with Pillar Eight's alchemy energy. And so Mars is in a relationship to the foundational baseline that has that quality.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:09)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:10)
to it. But I really think a lot of that alchemical nature does come from these very early childhood experiences
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:17)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:18)
around especially the floating and the drowning in the in the water stuff and how that was so life and death and other people were making decisions for you.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:29)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:30)
you know, and so I think that that has a lot to do with
setting up this template of
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:35)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:36)
of relating to the world through a cylical lens. and through
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:41)
Mm.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:41)
this acknowledgement of okay, there is that which is and then that stuff goes, I guess. So yeah,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:27:49)
it's really, really interesting.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:27:52)
Yeah. I think that I've
It's you know, my ability to take in information and let it go. you know, it's it is a constant practice. It is not the
Laurel Kassor (1:28:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:28:05)
easiest thing for me, but I know that when I've been, you know, we talked about the last two years, I've been really deep diving into my own receiving of shamanic healing and and I'm always like
asking my shaman, I'm like do other people like do this? you know, she's like, You have a you have an unnatural ability to to go a little deeper. You you go a little deeper.
Laurel Kassor (1:28:29)
You have a knack. Real, real knack for it.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:28:33)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She goes, you go you go a lot deeper than a lot of my clients do, but you know, but I think it's just because I'm so wildly fascinated
by the results that happen.
And that's the thing that I'm just whoa, this is so wild. Because, you know, the first part of that couple years was just I felt so stuck and I couldn't move and I couldn't move myself forward in a way and I would feel I had this you know, exactly what you described earlier with the transits of
I would feel really confident and then I and I would be like, this is my work. This is what I need to do. And then I would be and then I'd just
Laurel Kassor (1:29:15)
Ha ha ha.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:29:16)
be like, I'm gonna go hide again, you know? And it's been a lot of claiming, you know,
Laurel Kassor (1:29:22)
Mm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:29:22)
claiming work. And I think that has been something that I realized is when I've talked to clients in
you know, women who are overgiving or people pleasing or whatever, they're they're not always claiming their truth, and I am just always trying to give as much permission to like you can. You know, you can and
and you're not
You're not necessarily wrong. know, all of these versions of the rules that I've had, right? Where I'm yeah, I get it. There are rules, but there are not rules when it comes to living. You can live however you want. You can
Laurel Kassor (1:30:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:30:08)
your truth, your way of living, and my way of living are going to be different. And that's what's so cool. That's what's so
Laurel Kassor (1:30:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:30:15)
cool about us, right?
And we have our own rules And so I feel like a lot of me getting to know people, when I'm in a new relationship with someone, friendship, partnership, whatever, I'm like, what are your rules? I wanna know what your rules are. what are your rules
Laurel Kassor (1:30:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:30:31)
for communication? And it's a lot of like, is that okay with you? because if I understand and I think that's why I love astrology so much.
You know, in learning people's signs or even human design and understanding how their energy moves, because I'm like, there are rules around in those realms, you know, it all expresses very differently depending on what's going on in the chart, of course.
Laurel Kassor (1:30:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:30:54)
And it gives guidelines, right? And expectations. And that's why I think I'm so obsessed with it. I know.
every one of my friends, what human design they are, what their top three are, what kind of I remember their charts because it helps me understand and know how what's the best way for me to be a supportive person and in this relationship. You know, that's what I love about that. And that just sounds like all the role stuff that we've talked about.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:31:29)
But I think that's why
I know how to work with clients, you know, too. And I can show up, I can feel their energy, I can feel when they're freaked out, I can feel when they're into it, you know.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:42)
Absolutely. Your
body is a hundred percent an antenna. I know we didn't stress that a lot in the episode, but
Mackenzie Gelina (1:31:46)
my god.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:48)
again, this is Ceres in Taurus.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:31:51)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:51)
conjunct
the sun, Venus is involved,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:31:53)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:54)
but it also is Chiron in cancer too. So there is like a very much
Mackenzie Gelina (1:31:58)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:31:59)
gut intuitive barometer here for being able to sense and senses themselves. Physicality itself,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:32:07)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:32:09)
it really is a critical part of your experiences.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:32:12)
Mm-hmm.
you know, I had this one really funny client experience where she sat up off off of the massage table after I did some energy healing on her and she goes, That was fucking weird, Mackenzie.
And I just was like, I know, right? I was like, that's okay. That can be your truth. And and we pivoted, right? and I just was what else could work, right? 'Cause I didn't want her to
Laurel Kassor (1:32:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:32:43)
leave, feeling she was That was fucking weird and I paid for that and I like I don't know, right? I was just like, hmm, we tried something else. She texted me a couple
days later and was like, it worked.
Laurel Kassor (1:32:55)
Yeah.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:32:56)
And I was like, fuck it. I was just like,
Laurel Kassor (1:32:58)
Fuck yes, we love that.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:01)
and it was kind of about you know, I was just like, that's okay. You don't have to feel totally comfortable with this. It was weird,
Laurel Kassor (1:33:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:10)
maybe in your experience.
it's not weird to me, but it's only not weird to me because I've trained in it and I've done it a bunch of times already.
this is normal to me, but it doesn't have to be normal to you,
And I think you can have something that feels really good to you that I don't get, you know?
Laurel Kassor (1:33:28)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think it speaks a a lot to an
ability to meet clients where they are. And I think that's a really important thing
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:35)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:33:36)
for facilitators or practitioners to do
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:39)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:33:40)
in these, alternative spaces, spiritual spaces, support
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:43)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:33:43)
spaces, really, in so many ways. because it really is important that
your clients not feel they can't relate to you or they can't trust you if
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:54)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:33:55)
they're coming to you for your skill specifically. Right. And so it sounds
Mackenzie Gelina (1:33:59)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:34:00)
to me part of what your experiences have prepared you for, in addition to being able to navigate the cylical nature of life,
In a along with that, you've also been, you
Mackenzie Gelina (1:34:13)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:34:13)
know, finger quotes trained or honed to be able to
Really meet people where they are at and be unperturbed and be unmoved. And to really just understand what is true for you is not true for me. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm here to help you find more about what's true for you, you know, and to feel safe
Mackenzie Gelina (1:34:29)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Laurel Kassor (1:34:31)
in in doing that. And it sounds that's part of how you were able to, you know, at first unconsciously and then more and more consciously take the experiences of your early childhood where the rules were not very clear.
Because they almost killed you when they changed unexpectedly and out of whim and you listened to other people
Mackenzie Gelina (1:34:50)
Yeah
Laurel Kassor (1:34:53)
and their rules you know, and then moved
Mackenzie Gelina (1:34:55)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:34:56)
through these many, many various processes that you shared with us, and I'm sure so many that you that we just don't have time for, right? And and
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:02)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:35:05)
shifted them into something that you could
manage and master and channel and move.
In flow, flow mastery is a word that is entering my field am I or my orbit
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:35:19)
right now? and I think that that speaks really loudly to how you got to be where you are doing the work, but also the work
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:26)
Mm-hmm.
Laurel Kassor (1:35:27)
you continue to do, because as you've shared, you're not done. You're still doing your own work
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:32)
no.
Laurel Kassor (1:35:33)
as you move through the process, which is such a great demonstration that,
Here on earth no one graduates.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:40)
No, we don't graduate.
Absolutely not. There's always another layer of the freaking an ever evolving onion. you
Laurel Kassor (1:35:51)
The ever evolving onion.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:35:54)
think you're getting somewhere with it and then you go, my god, there's more. There's more
Laurel Kassor (1:36:00)
Very Billy Mays. But wait, there's more. Mackenzie, I could literally
talk to you all night long. But alas, dinner awaits me. So why don't you
Mackenzie Gelina (1:36:06)
Yes. Mm-hmm. I get that.
Laurel Kassor (1:36:13)
tell us a little bit about where we can find you and what's the best way that we can work with you?
Mackenzie Gelina (1:36:19)
so I you can go to biglovestudio.com. and I'm also on Instagram, I'm on YouTube, I'm on threads occasionally, but not all not
Laurel Kassor (1:36:29)
Only occasionally.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:36:31)
only occasionally, just when I want a little bit more Laurel in my life. I'm just what's she up to? And I hop on there.
Laurel Kassor (1:36:38)
Yappin.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:36:39)
we're doing seasonal astrology I talked about. So we kind of give on our newsletter we give a reflective lens to the season, you know, so that you can get to know yourself better through through the astrological season.
And I do shamanic healing sessions with people where we kind of release any of the energy that you no longer need in your body so you can feel more yourself.
I also have a yoga membership that is on my website. we're using the mat as a mirror to get to know yourself more and gentle yoga movement, not like hot vinyasa yoga. I try I tried it, it's not my style. I got my
Laurel Kassor (1:37:21)
Mm, my kind of yoga. Nice and slow. I hate sweating.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:37:28)
My Ceres is like nope. We gotta go more tourist with it. No.
Laurel Kassor (1:37:31)
She's like, no, comfort, comfort. But you reminded me
Mat to the mirror. And I was yeah, I have something to say about that later. as someone
Mackenzie Gelina (1:37:37)
yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:37:38)
who also has a Ceres, I have a pillar two, pillar seven connection. I have Ceres in Libra. So I Ceres in the sign
Mackenzie Gelina (1:37:45)
huh.
Laurel Kassor (1:37:45)
of Libra. I think a lot about how I'm a physical walking mirror for people.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:37:52)
yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:37:53)
You know what I'm saying? You just experienced it, right? I think it's super fucking interesting that you also
Mackenzie Gelina (1:37:59)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:00)
hold this similar same, same different type of philosophy where it these two pillars have met up together and you have t i for me this is myself, it's on my ascendant. So it's like I am the walking mirror. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for you,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:14)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:15)
it is in this ninth house. So it's like the teaching of the Matt as the mirror.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:21)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:21)
You see what I'm saying there? the physical
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:24)
mat is the mirror. So I think that that was a really interesting way to see how mirroring showed up as a specific
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:31)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:32)
type of frequency in your marketing there,
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:34)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:38:35)
which is a ninth house topic as well. Fun fact
Mackenzie Gelina (1:38:38)
Fun.
Okay. I love this. I love it's very fun. I especially because I was using the I'm I'm using more of a whole house system, so it's really cool to see how placid is and your system crosses over with everything that I already understood about my chart, but it's expanding in such a way.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:02)
It's very
cool. I love what you've done. This is cool. I like what you did with the place. Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:05)
You like what I've done with the place? this old zodiac? thank you though. No, but seriously, thank
you so much. This was a delight. I love
I love this. I love hearing your story.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:19)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:20)
I there I know there's so much we didn't even get to, which is crazy, but it's
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:24)
Yeah. Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:26)
such a delight to to get to meet you, to hear about everything. Thank you
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:30)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:30)
for having so much fun. That's the goal here to me.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:33)
Yes.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:34)
the goal is to have fun. this isn't fun if we're not both having a good time. It's really stressful, actually, if we're not having
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:36)
Absolutely. I know, right?
Laurel Kassor (1:39:41)
a good time.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:46)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:42)
It should be fun to learn about yourself. It should be fun to learn about the universe.
We're fucking participating in it. It's a giant game. Just ask the sun, just ask Leo, right? So it's it's really cool. It's really cool to be able
Mackenzie Gelina (1:39:49)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
Laurel Kassor (1:39:56)
to have other people see this lens because it is quantum. I think that astrology is a quantum.
system, I don't care which astrological framework you're looking at it through, the premise
Mackenzie Gelina (1:40:08)
Right. Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:40:10)
is observation impacts reality.
Well we'll pick your fucking system and your framework and then fucking get to it. You know? So that's yeah. It's it's cool
Mackenzie Gelina (1:40:17)
Yeah, have fun with it.
Laurel Kassor (1:40:20)
to see it go across systems.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:40:22)
Right.
we all have our unique way of reading and showing up because it's an art and a science all at the same time. and that's what I tell all of my clients when when I've done astrology readings before, I'm like, this is my interpretation. You're gonna have
Laurel Kassor (1:40:36)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:40:38)
a different interpretation from another astrologer. It doesn't mean either of us are wrong.
And you take what you want.
Laurel Kassor (1:40:47)
I will
never forget how my professor one day I was answering a question he had asked and I said, Well, in my opinion, or I said, in in my eyes, or I said the thing a thing I usually say from my perspective, I said, or something something I always preface.
Mackenzie Gelina (1:40:59)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:40:59)
It's just part of how I speak. And Uranus Neptune in my third house. but he
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:03)
Ha ha ha.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:04)
got on my case about it and he was like, just speak confident about it, just assert it. And I was like, No, but like what? This is astrology. this is about how I am seeing through.
it. This is not an object
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:14)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:15)
this is not a it's an objective fact in that there are rules to astrology, but interpretation
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:20)
Yeah.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:21)
itself, if you are interpreting within the lens of those set
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:24)
Right.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:25)
rules, of that's my lens on it, brother. Okay. But yeah
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:29)
Yeah, yeah. It's my eyeballs.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:33)
Yeah, look listen, through my little eyeballs,
here's what I see. thank you again, Mackenzie. If y'all are curious
Mackenzie Gelina (1:41:38)
exactly. Thank you.
Laurel Kassor (1:41:42)
about what I would see
your chart with my little eyeballs, then I would love to support you. I offer readings that will help you dig into your soul syllabus. you can find all those ways to work with me on soularcastrology.com. You can connect with me on threads at astro underscore Aries or on Instagram at soularc underscore astrology. And don't forget, my friends, stay in orbit by subscribing. Leave a comment to let us know what's landing for you. And of course sprinkle some stardust on this podcast by sharing it with the Astro Hoes in your life. Until next time Seekers, Ad Astra.
